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To: Fred Levine who wrote (68860)	3/19/2003 8:26:19 AM
From: Fred Levine	Respond to of 70976

D-Day By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN resident Bush is fond of cowboy imagery, so here's an image that comes to mind about our pending war with Iraq. In most cowboy movies the good guys round up a posse before they ride into town and take on the black hats. We're doing just the opposite. We're riding into Baghdad pretty much alone and hoping to round up a posse after we get there. I hope we do, because it may be the only way we can get out with ourselves, and the town, in one piece. This column has argued throughout this debate that removing Saddam Hussein and helping Iraq replace his regime with a decent, accountable government that can serve as a model in the Middle East is worth doing — not because Iraq threatens us with its weapons, but because we are threatened by a collection of failing Arab-Muslim states, which churn out way too many young people who feel humiliated, voiceless and left behind. We have a real interest in partnering with them for change. This column has also argued, though, that such a preventive war is so unprecedented and mammoth a task — taking over an entire country from a standing start and rebuilding it — that it had to be done with maximum U.N legitimacy and with as many allies as possible. President Bush has failed to build that framework before going to war. Though the Bush team came to office with this Iraq project in mind, it has pursued a narrow, ideological and bullying foreign policy that has alienated so many people that by the time it wanted to rustle up a posse for an Iraq war, too many nations were suspicious of its motives. The president says he went the extra mile to find a diplomatic solution. That is not true. On the eve of the first gulf war, Secretary of State James Baker met face to face in Geneva with the Iraqi foreign minister — a last-ditch peace effort that left most of the world feeling it was Iraq that refused to avoid war. This time the whole world saw President Bush make one trip, which didn't quite make it across the Atlantic, to sell the war to the only two allies we had. This is not to excuse France, let alone Saddam. France's role in blocking a credible U.N. disarmament program was shameful. But here we are, going to war, basically alone, in the face of opposition, not so much from "the Arab Street," but from "the World Street." Everyone wishes it were different, but it's too late — which is why this column will henceforth focus on how to turn these lemons into lemonade. Our children's future hinges on doing this right, even if we got here wrong. The president's view is that in the absence of a U.N. endorsement, this war will become "self-legitimating" when the world sees most Iraqis greet U.S. troops as liberators. I think there is a good chance that will play out. But wars are fought for political ends. Defeating Saddam is necessary but not sufficient to achieve those ends, which are a more progressive Iraq and a world with fewer terrorists and terrorist suppliers dedicated to destroying the U.S., so Americans will feel safer at home and abroad. We cannot achieve the latter without the former. Which means we must bear any burden and pay any price to make Iraq into the sort of state that fair-minded people across the world will see and say: "You did good. You lived up to America's promise." To maximize our chances of doing that, we need to patch things up with the world. Because having more allied support in rebuilding Iraq will increase the odds that we do it right, and because if the breach that has been opened between us and our traditional friends hardens into hostility, we will find it much tougher to manage both Iraq and all the other threats down the road. That means the Bush team needs an "attitude lobotomy" — it needs to get off its high horse and start engaging people on the World Street, listening to what's bothering them, and also telling them what's bothering us. Some 35 years ago Israel won a war in Six Days. It saw its victory as self-legitimating. Its neighbors saw it otherwise, and Israel has been trapped in the Seventh Day ever since — never quite able to transform its dramatic victory into a peace that would make Israelis feel more secure. More than 50 years ago America won a war against European fascism, which it followed up with a Marshall Plan and nation-building, both a handout and a hand up — in a way that made Americans welcome across the world. Today is a D-Day for our generation. May our leaders have the wisdom of their predecessors from the Greatest Generation. fred

To: Fred Levine who wrote (68860)	3/19/2003 8:31:07 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Zonder, in the past you have been guilty of reckless, inflamatory, and stupid posts. I enjoy reading your posts, as well. What do you get out this provocation? I did not think of my post as provocation. If you take a look at the last few posts between Cary & me, you might understand where we were coming from - prejudices towards Jews, and their own prejudices. Just like Cary's remark on all Christians being fundamentally anti-Semite did not infuriate anyone on this thread, I did not expect my remark that I observed contempt from groups of Jews (not individuals, strangely) towards non-Jews to "inflame" anyone. I should have said "mostly", or "some Jewish communities", probably, as I clearly have not seen them all, and this contempt and self-image of racial superiority is certainly not dominant in all the Jews I know. Do you seek attention of any kind? You obviously cannot evaluate the Jewish community objectively, and neither does it seem possible for you to look at this like just another subject. Clearly, I have witnessed some critical statements by Jews of gentiles. Oh really? Now that you mentioned it, I seem to remember some PMs we exchanged in which I had mentioned this impression of mine, Jews talking about non-Jews with a prejudice, at times in contempt of their racial inferiority especially re intelligence. I also remember that you agreed with me, telling stories of your own. In fact, I just checked your last PM on the subject - it starts with the sentence, "There is no question that you are correct about Jewish prejudice". So, what hypocrisy is this??? We were talking about prejudices of Jews, just like we were talking about prejudices of Christians immediately beforehand. The latter was no more "reckless, inflamatory, and stupid" than the former. I am sorry if the subject touched a soft spot and hurt you, but that was not the intention. You may earn my first ever "ignore" button. You do what you have to do.

To: Fred Levine who wrote (68860)	3/19/2003 8:40:27 AM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Fred, I don't want to take sides in this. I know that Zonder's comment is inflammatory. But that does not mean there is no truth to it. Believe it or not I once heard a Middle Eastern Jew comment that the European Jews had had utter disregard for the word of God and had married gentiles to a great extent. Therefore, he argued, it was necessary for God to send Hitler to punish them (and purge the impurities?)! This strikes me as a very racist point of view. I have been willing to chuck it up to that person's view rather than Jews as a whole. However I have noticed very big differences between outlooks of Western Jews in general (and NY Jews in particular) and those of eastern nations. Zonder's comment does not sit well with my view of NY Jews, but it is only an exaggeration of what I have seen of the eastern Jews. ST [edit: any time a negative statement is made that brushes the entire community with one stroke, it is inflammatory IMO. What is more, it is possible to be "truthfull" and inflammatory at the same time.]