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Politics : Stop the War! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 3:29:13 PM
From: Lizzie Tudor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21614

interesting... what do you think about the restructuring effort in iraq and the ability to create a democratic society there? They have a high unemployment rate, do you think availability of jobs for the young there will make a difference to how iraqi citizens view the US and arab nations as a whole? I was thinking economic issues were at the core of terrorism also (never quite made the connection to property rights, but ok)- so jobs creation should help, no?

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 4:17:18 PM
From: Suma	Respond to of 21614

Magnificent post, Art. Just about sums it up. The complete ignorance of our government to even attempt to understand the other side's actions. Unilateral decisions that will only come back to haunt us in the end. No matter whether we win this war or not, we lose. Until well educated people run for office (something offensive to anyone who values intellectual acumen over making false promises to win elections and playing the politics" GAME ") we will be stuck with singularly minded politicians who control too much and have (imho) not the best welfare of the AMERCIAN people at heart. e.g. this of absolute lack diplomacy,bringing down world opinion against us and ensuring the loss of human life. Thank you for your edification from your diplomatic experiences.

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 4:22:07 PM
From: eims2000	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21614

The only problem with your theory Art, is that Americans overwhelmingly support this action. At this moment.

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 4:47:03 PM
From: Rock_nj	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21614

Well said. It's a complex matter, but it really all comes down to good old black gold/OIL..... Whoever controls Iraq, controls the 2nd largest oil supplies in the world. The big wheel keeps on turning.

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 5:09:56 PM
From: thames_sider	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21614

Excellent post. If only what you so eloquently express could be drummed into some neo-con heads... <edit> DOS memory grub just in case JXM is watching <g>

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 5:27:22 PM
From: jttmab	Respond to of 21614

Nice piece. The only thing I might disagree with is your last paragraph. Now why won't the Bush administration look at the whole picture? Because it is blinded by ideology... A more blunt version of the paragraph might be. The mid-east policy of the Administration coincides with the policy of Sharon. Eliminate the Palestinians and annex the occupied terrorities [order of events is arbitary]. jttmab

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 6:03:56 PM
From: Mike M	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21614

Art you gave a spirited argument regarding the case for Palestine. Although Palestine has been a blight forever, I don't buy your description of the "Bush" stance. In fact he has recently announced a position that Palestinians should be afforded their own homeland. Moreover, what has transpired over the past 60 years isn't GW's fault. Re:<<The documents supporting this view are numerous and have been cited by many others on this thread. The evidence is overwhelming. Assuming that most people are too ignorant of the real situation, and too preoccupied with other problems, the Bush administration has bamboozled the public into believing that war is the only way.>> Then you come up with this crap and suddenly you look like a loony toon. I don't know where you come off with "the evidence" but you don't know what you're talking about. The above rantings are suggestive of an imbalance and unworthy of response. You make an assumption that is pure hogwash. People know as much about issues as they want to. The issues are discussed nightly and all over the newspapers, radios, TVs and Internet. It is only when they filter it through a maliciously skewed bias that they can view issues with such a demented paranoia. Your lack of faith in Bush is one end of the spectrum. I not only don't share your views but consider that I better understand the military issues involved with Iraq than do you. If you think this is strictly about oil then you are a fool. If you are just saying this to make a point, then you are a lying fool. Your perception of how things are to be done diplomatically is close minded and bereft of moral responsibility. There are countries who have turned a blind eye to the treatment of the Iraqi people and have sold their souls to the Butcher of Baghdad. Their position on the UN Security council insured that diplomacy would not accomplish the minimum acceptable goals. To ignore this treatment of humanity while allowing this man to build WMD's is foolhardy. While the fact that our perceptions and value systems are distinct is of significant consolation to me, I'm not going to sit by and idly watch you malign our Executive agency. The problem isn't with them. It is with you. If you want to behave like a troglodyte fine. Recognize that you are in the minority for a reason. Re:<<Well, Mike, given your conservative background, I wouldn't expect you to agree with me...>> Speaking of backgrounds, your liberal education, UofM for gosh sakes, says plenty.

To: Art Bechhoefer who wrote (614)	3/20/2003 6:48:30 PM
From: Machaon	Respond to of 21614

A Crash Course in the Real Facts. ( about Israel) Mayer Gniwisch (2 Apr 2001) 1. Nationhood and Jerusalem Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam. 2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel. 3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. 4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. 5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit. 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem. 9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. 10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms. 11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. 12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey. 13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict; The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won. 14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. 15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths. 16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. 17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel. 18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians. 19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives. 20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall. These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference? (For those of you who were kind and interested enough to read, the preceding, let me add two more items: a) Israel is the ONLY MEMBER OF THE UN THAT IS NOT PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL b) Israel has NEVER BEEN PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP IN THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS netanyahu.org