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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (88937)	4/1/2003 7:57:46 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Bilow. Our population consists of effete SUV driving yuppies that are afraid of getting into a bar fight Some of it. But that discription doesn't accurately describe our military or for that matter many of our civilians. Watch what the American public does when, by the 4th of July, commentators start talking about bringing back selective service. You'll always find some commentator that will say just about anything but calls for the draft will be few and far between because the need is not and will not be there. "and one of the world's biggest (as well as the most powerful) army." This is simply far from true. Our army/military can beat the pants off of any other army/military You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next. Your actual point seems more to be that it is true that we have the most powerful army, but that other considerations blunt that power. By contrast, a handful of Baathist party members keeps Basra under the control of Saddam Hussein. Iraq is a tiny country 1/10th our population and is dirt poor. Our impotence should be obvious from this. The facts you presented do not show American impotence. Yes, yes, I know that the Baathists don't "play by the rules". Big f'ing deal. Within the context of this dicussion I agree. That doesn't make them any weaker or make it easier for us to defeat them, but you seem to be attacking a straw man. I never made the argument "but the Baathists don't play fair..." Just like we helped Afghanistan against the USSR, (the ancient theme of David against Goliath), considerable parts of the rest of the world will assist Iraqis against us. How would you define considerable in this case? The Bush administration's mantra of "you're either with us or against us" is broken. Forced to choose sides, the world is against us. No one is forcing or trying to force anyone to be against Iraq or against us. If your for the Baathists then your against us but neither by word or action is the US saying that other countries can't be neutral. Tim

To: Bilow who wrote (88937)	4/2/2003 6:09:41 AM
From: frankw1900	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Our population consists of effete SUV driving yuppies that are afraid of getting into a bar fight, much less losing their lives in some pointless war on the precise opposite side of the planet Untrue. Our military strength is due only to our technology Untrue. Us military folk are remarkable. Their training and doctrine are superb. Even if they had the same weapons, they would still defeat any Arab army due to the superior training and doctrine. and that technology is useless in offense against enemy civilians. We're going to find out when it comes to "civilain combattants" in Iraq. That is, while our military is extremely good at engaging and defeating enemy militaries, we have absolutely no ability to engage, defeat or pacify enemy civilian populations. Not demonstrated. This is a defect that we share with Israel, Not demonstrated. Our army/military can beat the pants off of any other army/military, but it is worthless at governing civilians Not demonstrated in the case of Iraq. By contrast, a handful of Baathist party members keeps Basra under the control of Saddam Hussein. Iraq is a tiny country 1/10th our population and is dirt poor. The Baath party had the Republican Guard, the Army, at least three secret police organizations, a policy of torture and murder and, in the case of Basra a traumatized population to try to continue to intimidate in the absence of military backup. We'll see how well they do once it's clear to the Basrians the Regime's muscles are gone. Our impotence should be obvious from this. No logical argument has been made to demonstrate this. Yes, yes, I know that the Baathists don't "play by the rules". Big f'ing deal. What are you gonna do about it, complain to the judges??? Behave well. Show good character. Show reasonble sensititivity towards good people and pursue a policy of ruthless de-Baathification. We already went into Iraq completely disregarding the desires of the UN, so there's no one to hear our complaints that the other side ain't playing fair. The UN never paid any attention when the US complained of the Regime's intrnsigence before 2001. Even if we hadn't already shat all over the UN, The past ten years the UN has been shitting on the US. But that's OK. the rest of the world sees us as a bully that needs a comeupance. Some of the world sees the US that way. A great deal of the rest of the world looks at the US with a guilty conscience gained from abdicating their responsiblities as modern countries. Thus the nasty feelings towrds the US. These will change as the US is seen again to stand for it's ideals. It's only a matter of time before they start more actively supporting the other side. That depends on how well the US behaves in Iraq in the coming months. 'They' are going top start supporting Baathists? I can see a couple of ME countries might but will the rest of the world in the face of the horrifying list of atrocities which will be uncovered? Just like we helped Afghanistan against the USSR, (the ancient theme of David against Goliath), considerable parts of the rest of the world will assist Iraqis against us. Phooey. The US "helped" the Afghans because the USSR was the enemy of democracy and freedom. I expect the enemies of democracy and freedom will attempt to derail the US project in Iraq but not all the rest of the world will. The US will manage to unseat the Hussein regime and de-Baathify the country. The world is a nasty place I've travelled through a great deal of it and haven't found it that way. Most folk, not all, are good. It is a hell of a lot bigger than we are. You have a point? It is filled with people who don't really like us, who are jealous of our strength and power. Some folk are like that, not all. They are conspiring against us even as we post here Some are, not all. Not even all the adversaries. Our public relations and diplomatic disaster is coming back to haunt us. You see it as a disaster. I see it as the first step the US has taken in quite a while to define itself and its values on the world stage of 21st century. Have to see how disastrous it looks in a couple of years. The Bush administration's mantra of "you're either with us or against us" is broken. I never liked that formulation but it can be modified. Forced to choose sides, the world is against us. Yet to be demonstrated.