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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Gary Ng who wrote (69161)	4/3/2003 4:53:47 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Hurt in combat or confrontation is not, it is if it [broken arms & shooting] is done after she became POW(assuming it was not caused by accident). OK. Let me try to say this very carefully so as not to cause our excitable friends to climb all over me - what I was (and am) trying to say was (is) that if you wanted to torture someone, you would not break their arms & legs and you would most certainly not shoot them. Again, I am NOT OK with torture. I am saying the following only from a scientific point of view of WHY broken legs & gunshot wound does not indicate torture. (And I resent having to write such a disclaimer, as well as being accused of supporting inhuman acts just because I questioned the speculation of their existence!) In torture, breaking major bones is not very smart, because: (1) People tend to faint (torturer does not want that... it's an comfortable escape from the pain, a valuable rest period) (2) Breaking smaller bones just as much pain, and there are many of them Shooting the person they are trying to torture is VERY stupid because: (1) High risk of death (Duh!) (And torturer does not want that) (2) Or excessive bleeding that could lead to fainting (torturer does not want that either) In short, from the little information that we have available (i.e. legs & arm broken and gunshot wound) it does not look like she was tortured. It looks like she was injured in combat, or trying to run away, or something. It does not look like someone deliberately tried to cause her excruciating pain, because, frankly, you don't need much of an imagination to find more effective ways of torturing a 19-year-old girl. That is why I asked for more detail, she would know it better. So did I. All I got was accusations of supporting torture. For crying out loud..

To: Gary Ng who wrote (69161)	4/3/2003 8:22:29 AM
From: Fred Levine	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 70976

>>Seems that Iraqis are much more civilized than US portraited<< I regard Iraqis as civilized, but I did expect more torture and gas. However, it is the standard procedure for a country to protect its civilian population from invaders. It is not generally considered the responsibility of the invaders to protect civilians. Once again, the world turns a blind eye to this inversion of morality. Here the Iraqis are using mosques as forts, civilian shields, and the US is taking losses trying to avoid civilian destruction. I don't hear one peep of criticism of the Iraqis from Europe or the anti-war movement. Please don't say we were not invited to Iraq. There was no freedom of press to invite us. Soon we'll see how welcome we are. We do know the people in Halabja did not invite Saddam. fred