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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: FaultLine who wrote (92448)	4/11/2003 4:22:22 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Respond to of 281500

re cluster bombing: I don't believe anything, until it is reported on both Fox and Al Jazeera. Both are willing to put out doubtful info that backs up their ideological slant.

To: FaultLine who wrote (92448)	4/11/2003 4:41:48 PM
From: FaultLine	Respond to of 281500

Cluster Bombs au.af.mil Overview Cluster munitions (CBUs) fall into the dumb bomb or unguided category with the exception of sensor fuzed weapons. CBUs combine dispensers, fuzes, and submunitions into a single weapon with a specialized or general purpose mission. Once released, CBUs fall for a specified amount of time or distance before their dispensers open, allowing the submunitions to effectively cover a wide area target. The submunitions are activated by an internal fuze, and can detonate above ground, at impact, or in a delayed mode. CBU-52B The submunition in the CBU-52 is softball sized and effective against soft-skinned targets. The dispenser holds 220 of the submunitions and is best used against personnel or light-skinned vehicles. CBU-58A/B This cluster munition is optimized for soft skinned targets to include personnel and light skinned military vehicles. The dispenser holds 650 of the baseball sized bomblets to be dispersed over a wide target area. CBU-59B Rockeye II A newer version of the MK-20 Rockeye cluster munition, the CBU 59 is effective against modern armor and also against soft targets. Rockeye II and the older Rockeye I are dart shaped bomblets with a small fuze in the pointy end of each bomblet. The CBU-59 dispenser holds a plethora of the submunitions, around 700 of them. CBU-71/B The CBU-71/B is very similar to the CBU-58, carrying 650 baseball-sized bomblets. However, the CBU-71 submunitions have a random delay fuzing option making this cluster weapon great for area denial against soft- skinned targets (light or no armor). CBU-72 Fuel Air Explosive This cluster munition is highly effective against minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers. The weapon is made up of three separate submunitions dispensing an aerosol fuel cloud across the target area. As the fuel cloud descends to the ground it is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an impressive explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. CBU-87 CEM Combined Effects Munition The CEM dispenses 202 bomblets over an area patch of 800 feet by 400 feet. It is an area denial cluster weapon. This single payload is optimized against both lightly armored vehicles and personnel, in one highly effective submunition. The CBU-87 was used extensively for interdiction during Desert Storm. CBU-89 The GATOR family of scatterable mines is another favorite interdiction weapon by fighter aircrews. The dispenser holds 72 anti-armor mines and 22 anti-personnel mines. These mines arm immediately upon impact. The GATOR has two integrated kill mechanisms, a magnetic influence fuze to sense armor, and deployed trip wires that activate when personnel walk on or disturb it. Another feature of the GATOR is the random delay function detonating over several days for highly effective area denial and harassment operations. CBU-97 Sensor Fused Weapon This cosmic cluster munition combines 10 submunitions with 4 skeet type warheads in a single dispenser, providing 40 weapons total. After release, a fuze causes the dispenser to disperse the 10 submunitions, each stabilized by a parachute. At a preset altitude a rocket fires, propelling the submunition in an upward vector. As the submunition climbs, it is spun to disperse the 4 internal skeet warheads randomly by centrifugal force. An IR sensor in each warhead searches for a target, and upon discovery detonates over it, firing a kinetic fragment. The fragment drives itself through the lightly armored top of the target. If no target is found, the sensor detonates the warhead above ground to spray the battlefield with a myriad of lethal fragments. This weapon is good against armor and soft skinned targets, covering a 4,800 square yard area. MK-20 Rockeye The Rockeye is a clamshell shaped dispenser holding 247 dart shaped bomblets. The bomblets free fall over a 3,300 square yard area and detonate on impact. The shaped warhead charge in the bomblet is good against armor and soft skinned targets.

To: FaultLine who wrote (92448)	4/11/2003 5:41:30 PM
From: Ish	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Thanks for posting that. Amazing what the new weapons can do.

To: FaultLine who wrote (92448)	4/11/2003 5:49:27 PM
From: Bill Ulrich	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

re: "We never hear the usage context details of any of these cluster bomb injury claims. Until I hear specific details of cluster bombing of civilians, I for one have to say, I don't believe one word of it." Perhaps I misunderstood your comment, but the cluster bomb problem is not intentional usage w/r/t civilians. The problem is that only 95% of the bomblets actually explode. Thus, years after the conflict, a kid playing in a field picks up what looks like a curious toy... fas.org "Submunition function reliability requirement is no less than 95 percent. With a 95 percent submunition function reliability, one CBU-58 (with 650 submunitions) could produce up to 38 unexploded submunitions. A typical B-52 dropping a full load of 45 CBU-58/CBU-71, each containing 650 submunitions, could produce an average of some 1700 unexploded sub-munitions. The numbers of submunitions that fail to properly function and the submunitions’ dispersion determine the actual density of the hazard area. Studies that show 40 percent of the duds on the ground are hazardous and for each encounter with an unexploded submunition there is a 13 percent probability of detonation. Thus, even though an unexploded submunition is run over, kicked, stepped on, or otherwise disturbed, and did not detonate, it is not safe. Handling the unexploded submunition may eventually result in arming and subsequent detonation." fas.org

To: FaultLine who wrote (92448)	4/11/2003 10:14:35 PM
From: Sarmad Y. Hermiz	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>> Until I hear specific details of cluster bombing of civilians, I for one have to say, I don't believe one word of it. FL, I am not clear about your response to Jacob. Do you doubt the truth of this report "Red Cross officials have labeled the level of casualties "incredible," describing "dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children" delivered by truck to hospitals." ? Or do you only doubt that it was specifically "cluster bombs" that caused the dismemberment and death ? Regarding civilian death toll, I see it in the UK papers, while US papers either don't carry the items, or they are very de-emphasized. Sarmad

To: FaultLine who wrote (92448)	4/20/2003 6:10:47 PM
From: Sarmad Y. Hermiz	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>> Until I hear specific details of cluster bombing of civilians, I for one have to say, I don't believe one word of it. fl, here is an article with specific details. I bolded a quote from a US Army person, because you expressed disbelief in some of the press accounts that stated that cluster bombs were used in civilian neighborhoods. fl: "I have no reason to believe it was. Lots of lies and misperceptions flying around..." miami.com [excerpt] U.S. military officials acknowledge the damage in civilian neighborhoods. Two U.S. Army ordnance experts went street to street in al Kharnouq on Tuesday searching for the canisters that fluttered down April 7, leaving a virtual minefield amid the rows of split-level homes of designs that mix Frank Lloyd Wright and Mesopotamian inspirations. "It's a big problem," said Army Corps of Engineers Capt. Thomas Austin, whose crews are responsible for disarming unexploded ordinance in part of Baghdad. "This is the worst neighborhood I've personally seen." Austin defended the bomblets' use, saying the Iraqi military sometimes put anti-aircraft artillery in civilian neighborhoods and that the bomblets were meant to rain down on armor or anti-aircraft batteries, exploding when they hit their metal surfaces. Instead, they landed on softer targets - lawns and trees, and in one instance the asbestos roof of 60-year-old Sabih el Bazzaz's carport - cushioning their fall, and failing to trigger them.