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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: NightOwl who wrote (97322)	5/3/2003 2:43:46 AM
From: D. Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Whether you like it or not you are a predatory destroyer of worlds. That's "humanity" per se. Not just human. It is what it is to be alive. All organisms will expand to the limits of their environment, if left without competition. Even Star Trek recognizes that when there is competition, and no accomodation is possible, violence is the arbitrator. Pacifists don't recognize this, or refuse to recognize it. When no accomodation is possible, the pacifist always loses. Derek

To: NightOwl who wrote (97322)	5/3/2003 7:52:52 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<Gene Rodenberry...always kept a strain of hideous, evil, flesh eating "barbarians" across the Neutral Zone in recognition of the immutable Law of DNA.> Yes, Star Trek, like much fiction of the 1950s and 1960s, took the Communist real-world demons, and clothed them in the flesh of Klingons. Today, we have the Islamists. Every tribe needs an Other to hate. Only the labels and details change. <this future you are forecasting has no basis in fact> If by that, you mean that no society like that, or anything like that, has existed or exists today, I'd agree. Sweden and Switzerland come the closest. Since the Napoleanic wars, they have managed to avoid all war. And not by unilateral disarmament or passivity. In WW2, the Swiss armed their entire male population, and told Germany that if they were invaded, they'd abandon their cities, withdraw into the mountains, and fight an endless guerilla war. An ethic of Strict Reciprocity with Intermittent Forgiveness, will be the stepping-stone to an ethic of non-violent resistance and pacifism. <clearly illogical...It certainly is idealistic> Quite the opposite. I can think of no other practical solution, to a world where WMD are universally available. And they will be, the process is well along, and unstoppable. The signs are everywhere. You can't stop the spread of technology. Non-proliferation worked, more or less, for 50 years, but no longer. We can't stop little un-developed nations like Iran and N. Korea from getting nukes (and I see no practical way we can, without taking horrible risks). Once you accept the inevitability of the spread of WMD technology, the rest follows. Present and past methods are illogical, impractical, in such a world. <what you propose would require the elimination of all "human" DNA> Yes, we are inherently aggressive, competitive, selfish. But our aggression can be channeled into peaceful, productive pursuits. Building business empires. Competing to see which nation can be the first to achieve average life expectancy of 100. Much of the world has already done this. Germany and Japan had long traditions of militarism. But for several generations now, they have defined their national achievement by success in other areas, mostly economic. It was a hard lesson for them to learn, and I hope my nation doesn't have to learn it the same way. The NeoCons are leading us to a disaster like that, an overwhelming military defeat. It is truly ironic, that we are complaining about German pacifism. <It may be a theology> Yes, it is. I see my nation worshipping Diana, Goddess of knowledge/technology, and Goddess of War. But she is really an aspect of Shiva, the Death Diety, the Destroyer of Worlds. I don't believe in pre-destination. We can choose, and I choose He who said, "blessed are the peacemakers..." <assuming you are serious....> Maybe I should end my posts with one of these: EFE = exaggerating for effect BSS = blue-sky speculation OOTB = out of the box (WOOTB for way out....) FTTMLM = forgot to take my lithium medications (for cyclic manic-depression) ISC = ironic self-criticism DS = dead serious That post, and this, is WOOTB but also DS.