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Politics : DON'T START THE WAR -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: zonder who wrote (24445)	5/23/2003 12:54:04 PM
From: Thomas M.	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 25898

(although you seem to have shifted the conversation to Al-Qaeda with all this "infidel" talk). LOL! He has trouble telling "bad guys" apart. It's noteworthy that when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan, Bin Laden's crew immediately stopped fighting that war. They were not trying to exterminate the Soviets nor convert the Soviet Union to Islam. They were simply trying to get the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Tom

To: zonder who wrote (24445)	5/23/2003 2:57:18 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 25898

Do you think that is irrational? What exactly is your definition of "rationality"? Self-preservation at all costs? This coming from a self-described atheist? As someone who does not believe in "god", or anything that resembles a "hereafter", and who does not believe she will collect some heavenly "reward" in exchange for sacrificing her life, I find it interesting that you question this. What genetic purpose does it serve the human species except to eliminate self-destructive DNA, to commit suicide for some religious or ideological cause? Religion and spirtual belief is an irrational concept from the point of view of someone like yourself, who limits her perception of the world to 3 dimensions that can be actually described and experienced. You have said so yourself.. Any belief in "god" is not something Science can entertain since it cannot be proven. But for those who accept the possibility of a "supernatural deity", perhaps existing in other dimensions you seem willing to discount, the logic of the existence of "god" cannot be ignored. Spirtualists operate beyond the 3 positively known dimensions of time and space. It is implicit in believing in any form of "god" that one suspends disbelief and the logic of the 3 known dimensions, and accept the possibility of any multitude of dimensions in which their diety may exist. And even though many christians would assert that "I'm going to hell" for stating such a belief, it's irrational for a Christian to ignore the possibility that what we know as "god" is really an extra-dimensional entity which is responsible for creating the 3 known dimensions we live in. And as history has shown, religion is the primary motivator for encouraging large numbers of people to wage total war upon another. I am not trying to defend some dictator in North Korea (although you seem to have shifted the conversation to Al-Qaeda with all this "infidel" talk). Hardly... you seem bent upon focusing on N. Korea, although I only mentioned it because it is the most pertinent and immediate "threat". I'm worried about 1.5 Billion muslims who, if modernization and moderation are defeated by the Jihadists, will become willing sacrificial pawns for the fanatics who seek to restore the glory of the original Muslim empire. Sure the religious and political leaders who are instigating and encouraging militant fundamentalism are reasonably logical (which is why I support targeting what they generally love most, their families, if necessary), but the religious whirlwind they must generate to motivate such large groups of people can leave "riding the tiger", much as the predicament Arafat found himself in. He originally used the militants to destroy the Oslo accords because it would have not gained him the result he desired (in the manner he desired it). Thus, forced to support the militants, or at least not crack down on them, for fear they may overthrow his own regime and replace it with something even more reactionary and unstable, his agenda was increasingly usurped by Hamas and other groups. And he had to tacitly support their agenda, even if passively, in order to maintain the facade that he remained in control of all events in the territories and that his government was still the primary power. Because obviously he didn't have the strength to rein them in. And THAT is what I fear occuring in many Muslim countries, should fanatics assume power. There will be a constant pressure to being even MORE radical and militant about carrying out "the will of Allah"... And in such a climate, rational strategic gamesmanship is overwhelmed by sheer religious and nationalistic pride. Hawk