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To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/27/2003 10:22:45 AM
From: tsigprofit	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 48461

A good question, William....(eom)

To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/30/2003 12:08:12 PM
From: Threshold	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 48461

When the average working American figures out that he/she has been sacrificed so that the elite class can pillage the globe?

To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/30/2003 12:30:03 PM
From: tsigprofit	Respond to of 48461

Ford and the Rise of China. Ok, my thoughts WJ. I think that over the very long-term 60-100 years or more, the rise of China and these low production costs will be good for everyone. But, in the meantime, there will be a lot of economic dislocations, and I don't think we have seen more than the beginning of this so far. So, I think there will need to be future federal spending for retraining, and in some case extra monetary payments for some of those displaced. Otherwise, we can say "to hell with them, they are on their own" - but I don't think most people want to live like that - at least I hope not. There is huge pressure for companies to work overseas, and there are many benefits for all involved. For example, I work for an auto supplier. We have Chinese and Indian engineers working here in our offices (I am Euro American BTW), and they contribute a lot to the productivity of the company that I work for. We supply Ford auto parts. The company also has opened a technical center in China. Now, all of the suppliers, and auto makers are doing this. The trend is likely irreversible. I think this could be a good thing in one way - we will tie our economy and China's together more and more, and presumably, will then not want to have a war in the future as they get incrementally stronger and richer each year. BTW, read today that China has some of the best roads in the world - with road contruction going 24 hours a day. Jim Rogers says Shanghai will replace New York at the most important city sometime in the 21st Century. I don't know if that's true, but it's what I read. Matt

To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/30/2003 1:00:01 PM
From: xcr600	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 48461

ot-- A great question and a timely on. I was just wondering the same thing about two weeks ago... I don't know if it's enough to destabilize the USA but it sure could have a huge impact in the southwest. Already they estimate 1500 illegals per day attempt to cross the border. And with jobs disappearing in Mexico, that number can only increase. Expect drug trafficking, gun running etc to increase as people look for a means of survival. (heck, despite the US presence in Afghanistan, opium production is soaring) Additionally, I read somewhere earlier this year that China barely has 10% of their potential workforce "online" right now. Imagine how many jobs would be lost if they ramped that up.. Will the day ever come in this country that we have class warfare? The haves and havenots continue to widen. And with corporate America more concerned about their profit bonuses and options... we know what happens to the blue middle class worker. India continues to take more and more software related jobs. IMO, it's only a matter of time before some vital code (gov't, defense, etc..) ends up in the wrong hands over there or is written with backdoors for malicious activities. A bit off the subject but NBC news had a piece last night about this summer being the worse in 40years for teens to find work (not that they ever look too hard for it, but that's a different story). Lots of idle time for teens. I think we all know where that leads to.

To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/30/2003 1:03:37 PM
From: dan6	Respond to of 48461

--militant civil unrest?-- who knows? i have a friend who has predicted (wrong for years and years) that any day now, all kinds of inequities would bring about civil unrest and lead to the end of the world... ie race relations, the battle of the sexes(!), abuses of labor, millenium problems, government with too much power, terrorism, nukes all around the world... hasnt happened yet, which is very different than saying that it couldn't happen... my own thinking is that most big life changing disasters come without warning and cannot be prevented, i.e. large meteors, out of control busses, random violence, bad diseases, loss of sense of humor, etc... dan6

To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/30/2003 2:05:03 PM
From: christopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 48461

Hi William, Well there are other sides of the coin to consider here...Only product lines that are labor intensive seem to make the move out of the US...I currently work for a large company that manufactures plastic components for the electrical industry...Our cost to produce is 80+% raw materials, <20% goes to labor and overhead...the reason the ratio is such is the last several years we've automated many of our processes with robotics (made in the USA) to take the labor out of the mix. Our innovations have turned this from a 180 person facility to 350 in just a couple of years...one product line was moved OUT of Mexico last year to our US plant with a stipulation we automate it to take the labor out, which we've done by reducing labor in that product line by over 50%...quality complaints on that product line have been reduced by 20% since moving it to the US...another point, one of our sister plants which makes those huge heaters you see hanging all over large warehouses had 3 heater lines moved from the US to Mexico...two years later 2 of those 3 heater lines are back in the US plant...why?...a huge upsurge in quality complaints once the very reputable product line was moved to Mexico...I'm sure corporate could move our operation overseas and produce the product line at a lower rate but we've made that proposition so up front expensive with such a long payback I don't expect it to happen...you're right though, some industries are doomed with the cheap labor...but there are little reported activities taking place in US manufacturing that are keeping several jobs at home...btw, I'm playing all micro-caps these last few years and doing fairly well, I get a lot of info off this thread, thanks for your contributions...Chris

To: Bucky Katt who wrote (12098)	5/31/2003 3:02:14 AM
From: WhatsUpWithThat	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 48461

Color me dense, but my thoughts: Comparing $5 a day in 1914 and $5 a day in 2003 is not a meaningful exercise. Seriously, $5 a day in 1914 was a LOT of money if that's accurate (no offense: see dallasfed.org, "[...] in 1915. Earning an average hourly wage of less than 23¢ [...]". Same article, "Henry Ford sold his first Model T for $850 in 1908. At the equivalent of more than 2 years' wages for ordinary factory workers, [...]", which would have the avg factory worker making .15 per hour in 1908 based on 6 day weeks, 9 hour days.) Developed countries have always looked to underdeveloped countries for cheap labour. In the 50's and 60's it was Japan (I remember when "Made in Japan" was read off the product sticker with a sneer; now it's read with respect and admiration). In the 70's and 80's it was Korea. In the 80's and 90's it was Mexico. In the 00's it's China. (Hong Kong was also there through the 50's/60's and 70's). (Please note: this is a gross simplification and based on my personal recollections, so don't be too picky, anyone. The point is the same). In the 2010's or ?? it will be...I dunno, some parts of Africa? Is the real issue that we're going to run out of exploitable cheap labor, as each area goes through the progression to higher wages as they develop? What effect would THAT have, if we had to pay $50 a day instead of $5, minimum, for inexpensive labour? Is that what you meant by economic problems? As to civil unrest, are you suggesting that overseas labor pools (note to all that I'm using objective, distanced, capital-theory terms to describe what we're doing; the social issue of using underdeveloped countries this way is another (BIG) debate that will never end) will be increasingly difficult to manage because the individuals in today's more connected world see and know more directly of higher std of living, higher expectations, elsewhere and will be less willing to play the part we desire of them? Or have I missed your points? Cheers WUWT