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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: tejek who wrote (170634)	6/5/2003 5:38:15 PM
From: d[-_-]b	Respond to of 1580053

tejek, re:Hate, motivated by race, religion, gender or sexual preference and expressed in a damaging way against the subject of one's hate, is a crime. At that point, its stops being a "thought crime" and becomes a punishable action. No - that's a motive - the crime is the action part. So you want a Motive Crime Bill?

To: tejek who wrote (170634)	6/5/2003 6:08:04 PM
From: d[-_-]b	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1580053

tejek, re:As I said above, hate, expressed as a physical act, is a category of crime IMO. I would go so far as to agree with you that organized hate groups should be criminal. For example KKK, Al Qaeda. To use your emotional examples: What would you tell the parents of black's whose children where raped or killed by other blacks, that their loss was less of a crime because it wasn't done by someone of another color? IMO the Hate Crime Bill was a typical reaction to contemporary events with almost no thought to long term consequences. The people who brought the bill had their hearts in the right place, just not their (legal) minds.

To: tejek who wrote (170634)	6/5/2003 9:05:08 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 1580053

I see both sides and I can understand her anger and frustration; I also can understand why Bush would be upset.....but that is part of his job, she is a private citizen, trying to rectify the wrong against her father. EOM. The wrong done to her father was done by the murderers not by Bush. To the extent that the law and the government could rectify it, it had done so through the murder conviction and the punishment the criminals will get for their actions. Hate, motivated by race, religion, gender or sexual preference and expressed in a damaging way against the subject of one's hate, is a crime. At that point, its stops being a "thought crime" and becomes a punishable action. Hate, motivated by any reason is not an action. The actions, murder, rape, assault, arson, vandalism, whatever, are crimes, and the law stipulates a punishment for them. Its why I watch FOX news even though I disagree with many of their opinions. And I get e-mail from the New York Times and frequently listen to NPR on my way in to work. I agree with trying to understand the other persons view. I didn't say beating them which led to murder is two crimes. However, I would consider torturing them and then murdering as two separate crimes. I hope you can see the distinction. Beating can be a form of torture. But I'm fine with the idea of torture as a separate crime. I just don't like the idea of making thoughts an emotions, even ones as negative as hate and bigotry, in to crimes. I would not have a problem with laws against torture. "Well if hate is a crime you are criminalizing thoughts and emotions rather then actions. That's a little too big brother for me." You will have to explain further......big brother to me means watching people 24/7 and not letting them be free. Watching people 24/7 is part of what the government did in "1984". But it also did things like prosecute "thought crimes". Not just your actions can be illegal in Big Brother's regime, but your thoughts, emotions and motivations as well. " You still don't feel the same thing. Even if it happened to you your feelings would not be exactly the same thing." Close enough! Perhaps. I'll grant for sake of argument that those who had a similar experience might go through thoughts and emotions that where "close enough", but regular everyday people? Even caring and sympathetic people really can't "feel your pain". They might feel pain because of the fact that you feel pain, but they don't feel your pain they feel their own even if it is a reaction to yours. Tim