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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (101496)	6/13/2003 11:14:06 PM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; You've asked a bunch of silly questions, but since they do illustrate simple facts of human nature, here are some simple answers: Re: "The Palestinians didn't seem to mind when the Hashemites came in and established ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY over the area of Jordan, now did they??" You don't have the slightest bit of evidence as to what the Palestinians felt when the Hashemites came in. But it is a fact of human nature that the more different a ruler is, the more the people underneath him "mind". The problem is that the Hashemite kings are closer to the Palestinians than the Israelis are. Re: "Do you think the occupants of the region minded when the Ottoman Turks ruled the area for 400 years?? Yes, I think they did. Freedom is the eternal watchword of human desire. It's universal. That the English ruled Ireland for however many hundred years did not imply that the Irish didn't mind English rule. Re: "And besides, the Arabs felt no remorse about making Jews (and everyone else) live under Islamic law.. Why is that any different than what Zionism represents(ed)??" It's not the slightest bit different, which is why we should let the two sides fight it out without our involvement. There is no reason for our citizens to take a bullet to help the Israelis shoot little kids with rocks. Nor is there any reason for our citizens to sacrifice in order to help the Arabs blow their children to smithereens. In short, it just ain't our fight. -- Carl

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (101496)	6/13/2003 11:32:02 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The Palestinians didn't seem to mind when the Hashemites came in and established ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY over the area of Jordan, now did they?? In the region of Southern Syria (= today's Israel, West Bank and Jordan) it is useful to think of not of one Arab society but two: The farmers & townsmen vs. the Bedouin. They tend to wind up on opposite sides of any fight. Both Israel and Kings Abdullah, Hussein and Abdullah were supported by the Bedouin more than the others.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (101496)	6/18/2003 12:50:51 AM
From: Dayuhan	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The Palestinians didn't seem to mind when the Hashemites came in and established ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY over the area of Jordan, now did they?? Do you think the occupants of the region minded when the Ottoman Turks ruled the area for 400 years?? Do you think whoever was living in Palestine (combination of peoples) minded when the Arabs originally occupied the area? You’re missing the point. Imagine yourself as a Palestinian peasant. Not political, just living your life. Rulers come and go, you don’t even notice; they are far away and life doesn’t change. Estates are bought and sold, no big deal; the tenants pay their rents to a new landlord. Then the estate next door gets sold, and the tenants don’t pay rent any more. They’re evicted. Nowhere to go except the city, maybe find work, but what work is there in the city for a farmer? Rumours come around that the owner of the land you live on, who you’ve never seen, might sell too. Then your neighbor who can read comes by with one of the pamphlets the new folks on the estate next door are reading, and tells you that the newcomers plan to turn the whole place into a Jewish State. You think about that, and you don’t have to think long before realizing that you’re not Jewish. You’re in trouble. You may not reach for a gun, but when somebody comes along preaching resistance, you probably listen….. Zionism, as you define it, was representative of the period in which it appeared. Yes, and that’s a large part of the problem. Zionist ideology grew from, and was inevitably shaped by, an age in which imperialism and racism were the accepted beliefs of the day. The early Zionists were racists and imperialists. They could hardly have been anything else: you could have gone over late 19th century Europe with a fine-toothed comb and not found anyone who wasn’t. The bleeding heart liberals of the day were racists and imperialists; they just thought the lesser peoples should be cultivated, not exploited. Unfortunately, the political manifestation of Zionism emerged in an age in which racism and imperialism were rapidly achieving the status of obscenity, and things didn’t go quite the way they were planned. I think it’s important to look at why things developed the way they did. I also think it’s important to understand causation without invoking blame, but that’s never going to happen on a large scale.