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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Shawn Donahue who wrote (35435)	6/14/2003 5:48:48 AM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 39621

Neverless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Yes actually there was "faith" upon the earth literally 1000's of years before , when "God" sent other Messiahs to heal the rifts in the hearts of men over to the east. I would say that one must be very careful going around looking for things to call "abominations" in such an outdated outmoded superstitious collection of ryhmes & stories in the bible . One can encourage humility in many ways , and seek balance , even in the area of human sexuality , whether homo erotic or hetro . The main point in sexuality , is not to put inordinate demands on ones partner , or abuse them in violent ways . One does not end other people's lives by stoning and brutal murder just because of some physical love-making , or try and enforce this by some tyranically inhumane fashion . One could promote by force and pain of excommunication to legislate all human sexuality be for only procreation , but such a notion is doomed to extinction...and is becoming extinct finally . Except where one finds radical fundamentalist orthodoxy ...and we all have seen where that leads . If you prayed at all you would know , that forgiveness and some striving for more measures of tender mercy in this world in humility would prevent you from creating more fear and loathing where there needs be none . If one is going to seek out reasons to persecute homosexuality , then you need look no further than the ranks of your own clergy that has been rife with it for centuries. Love making can be a blessing for all in truth , and "growing closer" between two human beings and need not to have quite as much negative baggage associated with it as had been assigned to it from some highly evolved sheep and goatherer's morality stories of 2400yrs ago on into the Christian era. There have been enough stonings to death and needless murders to last us all several 100 thousand lifetimes . And as for much greater abominations , I could name the flaming sword of Peter , that cut a bloody swath thru human history ...or I could name terrorism and bombing of innocent civilans for just one ...or the widespread domestic violence that is a plague of epidemic proportions in the western world , esp in the US. Yes , the family is important and the path of thru life should perhaps unfold in several natural stages ...of infancy , youth , student , married person and participant in the community ...and on to old age and perhaps some final detachment from the world to more quiete pursuits of reflection and detachment . But in the arena of human sexuality , which never must needs be described in conotations of "The abomination" , which persist only because like so many other tenuous positions the church had stuck it's nose in theologically , are in need of constant defending to the point it makes her look rediculous. As in whether women can be priests and offer sacraments etc. One of the world's best changes came with the emancipation of women that the church stood in the way of for so long. And much of the successes and progresses of the western culture are reflected in the many contributions of women , their spirits freed and intellectual and emotional capital counted in ...that have accrued in only the last few centuries this has occured .

To: Shawn Donahue who wrote (35435)	6/16/2003 12:02:12 PM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

Yes I like those verses as well.

To: Shawn Donahue who wrote (35435)	6/16/2003 4:09:03 PM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Shawn. You can not logically use the fact that God commanded Moses to put angels on the ark of the covenant to completely overturn the Law that God also commanded Moses. God gave Moses the Law and it reads: Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; This is what you are basically saying ... because God commanded Moses to engrave angels at one place we can ignore the Ten Commandments Perhaps we could go further.- since you can prove God ignored His own laws concerning the graven images we can also ignore ALL of His Laws? After all - God stole from the Egyptions. God cause the Egyptions to "lend" gold to the Israelites the day before He led them out of Egypt KNOWING they would never return to repay it - therefore we can steal!! Exodus 3:22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. Exodus 12:35 And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: Obviously according to your logic - we can also steal. BTW It is not an act of 'self righteousness' to call men to repent. As Christians we are called to obey God as best we can and to repent when we discover we are wrong. RE>>Why not stick with the Holy Bible itself, instead of referring me off to some book about a specific church? << The Catholic Church does not listen to scripture - yet you are offended that I direct you to a book other than the Bible? Sorry I will never do that again - I can easily point out the blatant errors of Rome without using anyone else's works. I however find it a waste of time - as they are not listening anyway. It's a shame you will not read it - it would have done you good. It is solely based upon the scriptures and very well written. Brian