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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (104054)	7/4/2003 12:38:15 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Iraq was hardly a a humanitarian catastrophe on the same scale as many places in Africa There are hundreds of thousands of corpses coming out of those mass graves, maybe a million. If you don't think a million dead (& that doesn't count the dead of Saddam's wars) isn't a real catastrophe, you have high standards for catastrophe. We are not humanitarians- we are a capitalist nation, out for ourselves. This is fine, but let's not pretend we are anything else- because even if we can fools ourselves, the rest of the world isn't as interested in our self deception. It's not an either-or choice, X. There is a limit to what we can do, and a limit to what we want to do. Do you really think we could fix the Congo? It's nearly as big as the United States! We would need to station half a million troops over there for the long haul. Why would we want to do that? If we went, how long would we stay? Political realities and repurcussions always intrude. In the real world, we will usually choose the arena where national interest provides the lasting motive. If there is no lasting motive, we pull out too soon, like Somalia. What a disaster that was! doubly so, in that it convinced Saddam and OBL that the US couldn't take casualties. Now we have to stay in Iraq and take casualties to disprove the lesson. And because we took on Iraq, the cries are going up for us to fix Liberia (which we may because of our old ties to it) and every other disaster area. Strange twisted self interest, masquerading as humanitarianism, looks worse than no humanitarianism at all- imo Maybe you prefer the French approach, naked self interest, adorned with moral preening?

To: epicure who wrote (104054)	7/4/2003 1:28:16 PM
From: Sig	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<< Were we truly humanitarians we wouldn't have used Iraq as a proxy to kill Iranians, and we would have done something about Iraq long before this (and we would have done it with the rest of the world), and we would have been doing something about Africa. We are not humanitarians- we are a capitalist nation, out for ourselves. This is fine, but let's not pretend we are anything else- because even if we can fools ourselves, the rest of the world isn't as interested in our self deception. Strange twisted self interest, masquerading as humanitarianism, looks worse than no humanitarianism at all- imo.>> 1. We did something about Iraq 12 years ago, with full support of the UN along with many others, but we alone now get the blame for the truce that permitted mass killings. 2. Civilization has not reached the point where any country can prevent starvation or even provide life sustaining living conditions for all people..In the US alone, there is not enough money to provide full support to the elderly and disabled without big contributions from relatives and humanitarian organisations. 3. It is not the business of the Government to solve everyones problems. We do make great contributions in the form of money, food or troops to support the UN. Money loaned by the IMF helps prevent many countries to maintain an economy and prevent starvation. 4. The use of genetically engineered seeds developed in the US could save millions of lives if adopted by leaders of other nations.As could water treatment with chlorine or mosquito control maesures or vaccinations. But we cannot force them to use these products . 5. The war was unlike past wars and was conducted only to remove the top regime and minimize civilian and military casualties Which it did. 6. Its not only the US fault that some casualties are stll being taken. Saddam could step forward and say "Fellas the war is over and we lost, so return to your homes with honor since after being taken captive the US has released you to return to a better civilian life" Major humanitarian aid is properly provided by citizens , rather than government. Thru all the Church groups, companies, organizations and concerned individuals in a position to contribute. Sig