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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jamey who wrote (35469)	7/5/2003 3:24:32 PM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

James, I believe that Christ's church was called to meet corporately. Unfortunately, what I see called "the church" is saturated with idolatry. I have belonged to various churches. I was 'raised' in the Anglican Traditions. I quit going when my dad quit going. He quit when he wanted to divorce my mother :-) I was saved by Christ when I was 26 years old. The Lord sent a young pentecostle to do the majority of witnessing to me and so I started attending pentecostle churches. I then moved from one province to another and ended up going to a 'dutch' reform church briefly but soon found myself attending a 'home' fellowship that was pretty much a pot luck mentality. Everyone had a different meaning for various verses and "shared what the verses meant to them" This was justified by such statement as " God's word is alive" "God can say whatever He wants through these verses at any given time" They actually thought such thinking was glorifying God Word. I saw however certain elements that were missing: Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. There were no 'elders' in fact there was no one even older than about 30 years of age in that home group. I saw that what we had was too far from the biblical pattern No one wanted to be accountable and no one wanted to submit to anyone. I then decided that I had to seek out the 'church' once more. I started attending another pentecostle church but after a couple of years they moved more and more into the 'word of faith' movement. I did not leave that church but rather went North with another fellow to do a cabinetmaking contract for what turned from 3 months into 9 months. I attended a reformed fellowship while I was there but was labeled a heretic because I believed God loved everyone and that man will decided their eternal fate not God. No one there however wanted to debate me on the subject and when it came to Arminian defence I was as good as it gets :-) I moved South again when that contract was completed and returned to that Pentecostle 'word of faith' bunch I started working with some guys who were Calvinists and believed in Election and Predestination. I argued with them steadily but God had called them to 'continue' in His Word. I also argued with some of my friends and family at that same time in favor of Election. By day I fought for Free Will but by night I fought against it :-) I finally realized that too many sciptures could not be over come and the verses that favoured free will were forced to do so. I also had to admit God saved me in spite of my will! I started to share Election and Predestination at the 'pentecostle' church and soon told to leave. The minister announced that I was working for satan from the pulpit the first service I did not attend and so most of those who went there refused to even discuss anything with me. I was shocked at the power these godless priest wield I was being called out of there anyway as I could not listen to the crap they pawn off as preaching anyway. I then began attending 'Bible Presbyterian" church. They hold to mush of what the Westminister Confession of Faith 1643 stated except for the area of Eschatology. They were Premillenial. I came to believe in Postmillenialism as the most reasonable system I had seen and also became an exclusive Psalmist so myself and two of the elder from that church as well as some others formed our own church and called it Puritan Reformed. One of the guys started a book store and called it upon my wife's suggestion "Still Waters Revival Books" - it became fairly well known and still sells books on the internet. Unfortunately, as people became more 'powerful' (authority abuse) they forced the church to move from what was originally formed into something quite different. They became "Camerons (sp)or Steelites (after David Steele) or what they call themselves Covenanters" The confessions become as valid as God word. In order to take communion you must swear that the Westminister Confession of Faith is inerrant (without error not infallible) as well as a whole bunch of other man made documents. To this I can never submit - even if the WCF was inerrant it is not man's calling to suffer men to submit to anything apart from God's Word in matters of Faith and Worship. I could not swear that the document is inerrant anyway as they boldly confess that the Pope of Rome is the Anti-christ. I asked one member who has sworn to such if the framers of this confession meant a particular Pope of simply the office of the Pope and he confessed he did no even know! This member is however being considered for eldership. Another elder told me he swore to it for the sake of the peace and unity of the church but could not honestly confess that the Pope was in fact the Anti-christ. SO he swore falsely. I was extremely persecuted for leaving this church. I then attended the Free Church of Scotland. However after only 3 1/2 years the church 'officially' split in Scotland and our church ended up on the wrong side of the split. The pastor and only elder agreed that we were on the wrong side of the split but refused to do what was right. They planned to write letters to the presbytery that had warred over the matter and done what was wrong in the end anyway for years. The more faithful ministers called themselves 'The Free Church Continuing' I then tried to form yet another church with a few other fellows. One however refused to believe that the tithe of Melchizedek was still in effect even though I plainly showed him that Christ was a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek and that the bible teaches that it is an unchanging Priesthood: Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. He could not or would not agree that the 10% tithe was yet binding upon Christian. It is frightful that such simple biblical truth can be thwarted. Also a fellow who had jumped through all the proper hoops and wanted to be the pastor also agreed with him and used very strange forms of arguement to support such. He was also on a power trip. I could go no further and the fellow who wanted to be the pastor ended up pastoring the Free Church I had left in spite of agreeing with my summary of the situation there - he did not care He wanted to be a pastor and "live by the gospel" - truth was secondary. He promptly left when offered a calling at another church in Sunny Vancouver because the pastor there was discovered to be sleeping with more than just his wife and refused to repent. That was my last attempt at "fitting in" with the corporate worship of believers in a 'church'. I now home church my family. I am completely open to starting a new 'congregational' assembly but I am not open to compromising what God has commanded to get there. I have been accused of pride and rebellion for being where I am. I believe with all my heart that God Himself has led me here. I could be wrong - there are many verse that prove corporate body is the way Christ ordained things but for men to purposely lay aside God's will and commandments in order to "build their church" is vanity and sin. I do not buy the accepted FORM that men are using in churches of today. I do not accept all the pomp and glory doled upon the Reformed or even Deformed Priests of our day. The rule is not "let the women remain silent in church" but rather "let everyone but our elected priests remain silent" While the home church with no elders was wrong so also is the Priest mentality. Our priest is Christ alone - who sits in the holy of holies and 'we' are the preists on the earth - all of us who believe. Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. If you look at the 'structure' of the church today it is formed to protect the priests and pastors from the truth that may conflict with them and their authority. NO man has authority over another except according to God's Word Most of the submission that is being demanded in churches is godless. Even the Apostle John saw this godlessness in his day: 3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, RECEIVETH US NOT. Christ plainly taught us that this was not to be in His Church. Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your servant; I believe that the New Covenant Church should be formed after the pattern seen in the scriptures - they went from house to house. I do not say that 'church buildings' cannot be owned and serve purpose but the house to house mentality sheds the stain glass and crosses and pulpits. I am not against anyone preparing a sermon - and I mean anyone who believes the scriptures and professes to be saved. However, I also believe that others should be able to raise questions within the hearing of all. Remember it was only the women who were told to ask questions at home for the sake of order and authority - not grown men. If this had not been the situation then the apostles would not have preached within the synogogues - men were invited to speak. Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. If only ORDAINED MINISTERS are allowed to speak in the local churches then Christ Himself was a Rebellious and False Minister: Luke 4:14 ¶ And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and a fame went out concerning him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. When was Christ Ordained or attending Seminary? Where did common fishermen get such knowledge When was John the Baptist Ordained? When the 'church' decided to challenge Christ this was His response: Matthew 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven or from men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why then did ye not believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. That is my problem with the church of today. It protects pastors who teach contrary to the word and persecutes anyone who speaks against them. If you speak against what the preacher just taught after church people have been trained to see you as a rebel and a sinner. You may not speak against the high priest of the local church :-) So with such an attitude - where do you think I could possibly fit in. I do not believe a parent has any authority over a child once they have left their home other than what you have over anyone - that is to tell them the truth according to God's Word and leave it at that. If they do not want to discuss God's word with you and have decided they dop not value you opinion - then you can either bite your tougue or stop seeing them - just as you would any individual. I do believe the rulers have authority over you while you attend 'their' church. It is their church - the people have given them the 'power' if they rule according to God's word alone them I bid them God's speed and blessing - if they rule with man's authority or contrary to God's word them I pray God remove them from power and encourage those who suffer under them to stop granting them such powers and to account their behaviour as persecution for which you will be blessed and rewarded from God Himself. We need to do our best to assemble together. God calls men to unity but not at the price of truth. Most church assemblies are also too large. later Brian P.S. 1. God calls men to obey Him 2. God commands men to obey their Elders 3. Elders sometimes command men to disobey God 4. Therefore God commands men to be disobedient under the authorty of the church. Something smell funny to you?

To: Jamey who wrote (35469)	7/5/2003 3:51:15 PM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

James - I do not think that eschatology is sufficient grounds for separating from a local church. Although it greatly affects how you view the work of Christ it does not damage the basic elements of worship. I think using grape juice in communion is much worse. This is the pride of man tampering with what Christ Himself Ordained to be done in church. People say that they are protecting alcoholics from falling. Was Christ so blind? Is the power of Christ so weak? Also I do not abide the singing of man made hymns while God's provision in the book of Psalms is left aside. Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men‘s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; God gave the church spiritual songs that have His breath within them and certainly does not need us to donate our talents to His worship. Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. Most churches have become modern theaters of entertainment! Worship is not entertaining the troops.