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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (106744)	7/20/2003 8:35:56 PM
From: marcos	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Report from Senegal on consequences to locals of the Bush visit there, hundreds of arrests, hundred year old trees cut down, roads blocked, etc - #reply-19126792 There was nothing 'failing' about containment, Nadine, the attack on Iraq was a diversion from efforts against terrorism, and this thing of an 'uncowed Saddam' - wow, that's what it's all about, isn't it, a pride deal like between three year olds in a kindergarten .... and because you happen to identify yourself as associated with the seat of power, which in itself is seen as delusional by many by the way, you favour the demonstration of utmost pride to the extent that it trumps any desire for rational process to resolve these things between nations over the long term future Well many out here among the Rest of Us disagree on that, and we're going to disagree with it for a long time to come ..... maybe you don't care, you just say well screw the Rest of You, yer with us or yer agin us, and that's fine, you go right ahead and do that, and let it set the flavour for all international relations Had the PNAC bunch been open and honest about their rigid intentions to attack Iraq in that fashion no matter what iraquis did or did not do, or have in the way of WMDs or did not have, an entirely distinct dynamic would have existed .... they were not honest, they had a fixed plan and did not admit to it ..... they could have achieved regime change with other methods, perhaps not as quickly but with less ugly consequences, and far more legitimacy .... but they chose to let their hubris rule, and stuck to the fixed plan of the back rooms, and so we find ourselves in the present, divided where we should be united Were there any open contrition among the neocons for their arrogance, some of us out here just might then feel it appropriate to mention concerns as to certain statements of the french on the Iraq matter, or a couple of statements by a certain canadian prime ministre who some believe did the right thing for the wrong reason, but as things stand, we have all been cast as Against you, a status we did not ask for and do not want, the neocons' options being arbitrarily bogus in the extreme, but what can we do, we have been given the name, so here we remain - Against .... much later .... cheers, all

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (106744)	7/20/2003 9:33:14 PM
From: Dayuhan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Bush wasted eight months slogging it out in the UN with France throwing up obstructions and double-crosses all the way because he really WANTED to waste his time like that We needed the time to get forces in place, why not make a show of going to the UN, since the electorate expected it? I don't think that effort was ever meant to succeed. Once the troops started to move, we were committed no matter what happened at the UN. That's why the order was given when it was.