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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: GST who wrote (108972)7/30/2003 11:09:05 PM
From: Brumar89  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
It would have been moral for countries to make a decision to condemn Germany and act on behalf of the international community.

And if the international community lacks the will to do anything, which is pretty much always the case, then the moral thing to do is stand by and watch genocide occur IYO?



To: GST who wrote (108972)7/31/2003 2:32:22 AM
From: frankw1900  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
In each case you had civil war and/or genocide -- what country on earth suffered more than Cambodia.

I don't know about "more" but the results of the genocide in the Ukraine, Rwanda, WW2 Europe seem to me as terrible. Is there some qualitative or quantitative aspect of any particular genocides that make them more actionable than others?

For that matter, the Baathists had been, and still are, making war on the rest of the Iraqi population. That is what all the torture and small genocides in Iraq were about: a Baathist directed civil war - and a very one sided one at that.

As for Hitler, if he had stayed completely within his borders it would not be moral for one country to invade. It would have been moral for countries to make a decision to condemn Germany and act on behalf of the international community. One country, acting alone, cannot judge the morality of another and invade it based on its own judgement.

This is possibly the most morally and legally obtuse statement I've ever read. Sez who? Besides GST? What's your argument? You start to contradict yourself in the next sentence:

The institutions at our disposal for this process of decision-making are weak.

Of course they are. They are archaic. They developed out of the fallout of the European religious wars. The treaty tradition that developed was to protect the rulers, not the populations because the populations didn't count. Much has happened since the Treaty of Munster. The modern world has developed and its seminal political moments were those in which people found ways to run their affairs without rulers - the US being the outstanding example of this. It is not the case people in the modern world are only the property of their governments to be disposed of as the ruler wishes - as was done in Iraq under Hussein's regime, or Germany under Hitler, or Cambodia under PolPot, or the USSR under Stalin. The regime of Saddam Hussein had no place in the modern world because it disposed of its population as it willed.

The institutions you refer to - particularly the UN - are not only weak with regard to dealing with crimes against humanity: they are flawed in this aspect because they are structured so they can not respond.

You can wait the necessary years for the UN or some other consortium of countries to make themselves responsible for dealing with criminal regimes such as Iraq's or Cambodia's while hundreds of thousands and millions die under tyranny or you can dispose of them when it's possible.

Instead of making them stronger, most in the Bush Administration seem to intent on destroying any institution or institutional arrangement that might limit the unilateral exercise of raw American military power.

It can be argued well in contradiction that the US has finally re-started the stalled development of modern international organizations that will recognize the principle that governments can not dispose of their citizens in just any way they wish.

In the meantime, the US in its present government is doing just that, and not, as you say, "destroying the world community nd inserting itself as judge and jury -- this is immoral."

On the the contrary, belatedly, the US is taking the moral and modern high road in the face of opposition by those who have forgotten - and in some cases, have never known - their moral obligations.