To: Hawkmoon who wrote (112191 ) 8/21/2003 12:00:42 AM From: Bilow Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 281500 Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "To create some semblance of economic opportunity for the people who live there, to create a Mashall plan for the middle east. And finally, to force Moderate muslims to take a position against the extremists and force the religious civil war that needs to be wages within Islam which will decide its future direction. " This is failing miserably. And it's not like it hasn't been tried before. The French tried it in Algeria. They failed. The Israelis tried it in Palestine. They failed too. The problem is that it's a hell of a lot easier to destroy than it is to create. Our problem is that too many Arabs want to remove our influence, and they are convinced, correctly, that they can do this by destruction. The whole concept of going into Iraq as a "magnet" for terrorists is contrary to the concept of making Iraq a beacon of Democracy, LOL. Go look at the numbers again. There are what, 100 million Arabs or so. They have about what, 4 million children per year, maybe 2 million boys? And 1% of them are subject to the Jihad call, which is about, 20,000 per year. That means that just to stay even, we have to kill about 20,000 people per year. But we're not even coming close to that. Re: "I've also OFTEN pointed out that we have a potential for 4 million Islamic fanatics to take up arms against the west (1% of the 400 million muslims currently under the age of 18) over the coming 5-10 years. And all of this would occur REGARDLESS of whether we had invaded Iraq or not. " Let's get this straight. You point out a "potential" problem. But you admit that the problem is only "potential". The problem with your logic is that it is coming from the same mouth that just months ago went on and on about the "potential" problem of WMDs in Iraq. The public won't believe you with your "Chicken Little" stories about "potential" problems with Arab youth because you already pulled a "Boy Who Cried Wolf" about WMDs. Bush's problem is that a lot of people no longer trust his judgement. Wait till you see the polling data from military personnel stationed in Iraq. Re: "No Bilow, you have to face it, and confront it. Not cut and run, screaming your defeatist rhetoric, whenever the you can't stand the heat in the kitchen. " I've repeatedly stated that we inevitably win this contest (between Western culture and Moslem culture) without fighting, just like we eventually did win the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese, 20 years after we pulled out militarily. Nor am I a simple defeatist. I predicted that the Afghan invasion would go swimmingly as early as 48 hours after the WTC fell down. Different situations are different, and require different solutions. Iraq is not Afghanistan. Nor is the Afghanistan fight going all that well right now. Re: "And while you might have been right that Bush might have had difficulties in "selling" a war against Iraq, I don't believe he'll have much difficulty in convincing the American people that fighting terrorism(ts) on their home soil is preferable to fighting them here. " We've already been through this once. The oldcons tried to convince the "American people that fighting Communists on their home soil is preferable to fighting them here." This was the essence of the "domino theory", but it failed to convince the American public to stick it out. We eventually pulled out of 'Nam, and we will pull out of Iraq too. But faster, since the public was not united even going into Iraq, unlike Vietnam. -- Carl