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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: carranza2 who wrote (113765)	9/3/2003 11:52:26 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

By making 9/11 into a totem, we made political Islam a lot more powerful than we needed to. 9/11 was spectacular- but that was the point, and there weren't a lot of people involved in it. By making it a huge symbolic watershed event, that "changes everything", we made it a huge symbolic even for political Islam. Our bad, imo. We should not have done that. We should quit now, imo.

To: carranza2 who wrote (113765)	9/4/2003 4:05:22 AM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi carranza2; Re: "Not confronting political Islam is suicidal in more ways than one. Do nothing and our oil supplies are put in jeopardy. Are you ready for a long-lasting Depression in Western economies?" Bush's actions have put our oil supplies in jeopardy. All we had to do to get Iraqi oil pumping at full speed was to end the sanctions. Then the blood of the Iraqi people would remain on Saddam's hands instead of ours. As it is, we now have to face the possibility that the war in Iraq, which is turning into a Disneyland for Al Qaeda, will destabilize Saudi Arabia, with the consequent oil problems for the whole world. Re: "I don't agree with the way the Bush Administration has tackled post-war events. The planning has been atrocious." This is true, but the same people who believed the logic for why Saddam had oodles of WMDs and had to be invaded also did the planning for that too. Re the post war situation, their logic was defective regarding how the Iraqi people would receive us. They truly expected a liberation and ignored all evidence to the contrary. Remember this exchange? Bilow, May 28, 2002 ... The only thing worse than letting the professionals run foreign policy is letting the amateurs do it. ... The argument from the neoconservatives is a classic simplification of a complex situation. This is where amateurs make foreign policy into national disasters. ... The military still remembers Vietnam. Going into a war on the opposite ends of the earth with no allies and with your eyes closed to the real costs is an invitation to a national disaster. ... #reply-17525245 carranza2, in reply I really don't think that the military risks are going to be that horrible. ... #reply-17525347 Bilow, in reply The threat to US troops is not necessarily from "Saddam's military machine" in terms of tanks and the like. The problem is guerilla warfare.* Look at how bogged down the Israelis are in Palestine.* #reply-17525544 carranza2, in reply Carl, you make good points. Why, then, all the blather and rhetoric from our side? The Islamists despise us and think we're a paper. Why prove it to them? #reply-17525609 Bilow, in reply I don't have any problems with what the Bush administration is doing. I don't think that they're going into Iraq, but I also don't think that the blather and rhetoric is doing anyone any damage. #reply-17525668 This was another good one, the "American government as pirate" theory: carranza2, January 12, 2003 So long as Iraqi oil pays for our war expenses, I'll be satisfied. ... The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Iraqi oil paying for the war. It will serve as a useful deterrent against future bad behavior in the ME. ... They understand and respect that kind of behavior. #reply-18434735 It's kind of funny that the attitude before the war was that we would pay for it with their oil, and thereby teach the locals a lesson in respect. Now our lesson in respect has disintegrated, and turned into a prayer that we can attract Al Qaeda into Iraq and destroy them there. That we didn't destroy Al Qaeda when we were in Afghanistan is pretty good evidence that we won't destroy them in Iraq. carranza2, June 9, 2003 We should recognize that the weapons will not necessarily be found immediately, that the noise on their absence is presently not justified, and that it is best to suspend judgment for at least a month or two, and perhaps longer. #reply-19015335 Okay. Three months have gone by. What do you say now, that the Pres needs another "month or two"? -- Carl