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To: Stock Farmer who wrote (64495)	9/12/2003 9:33:33 AM
From: willcousa	Respond to of 77397

"....the constant screaming of those least likely to survive...." Amen, brother. It is not a one-way street. We are building - after many, many, years - a new, higher technology steel industry in this country, one that depends on capital rather than labor. And so it will go in industry after industry because even better than cheap labor is no labor. So as we educate ourselves we had better keep this in mind. Will

To: Stock Farmer who wrote (64495)	9/12/2003 11:58:20 AM
From: Kirk ©	Respond to of 77397

well said! One of the best posts I've read on SI in a LONG time. I honored you (I hope) by cross posting your work here suite101.com in the "Overseas Outsourcing" forum. BTW, much of my job when I worked at HP/Agilent was to train Singapore engineers to do my job. My "other job" was to invent a new product/job to train even more the next time. When I started in 1978 as a summer intern we trained them to test what we made. By the time I left in 1998 I was training analog IC design engineers to do the work we used to hire kids like me from college to do when I started. What most don't talk about in the equation is how the foreign governments give "tax holidays" to the companies to in effect buy the R&D jobs. I actually think we will need to eliminate the corporate tax in some way to compete. This will not be popular as it will mean taxing the individual more but that is what the other countries are doing and will continue to do until they take all our good jobs. I should have learned to operate a crane in Oakland for $115K a year, 35 hr work days and good health care as opposed to 4 yrs at Berkeley where most engineers now that have 20 yrs and no management duties are happy to get a job for $80K, much less the $115K for 60 hr work weeks some tech jobs require.

To: Stock Farmer who wrote (64495)	9/12/2003 5:21:22 PM
From: maceng2	Respond to of 77397

But there is a good reason for it. They are under-delivering relative to what the global labor-pool is capable of producing per dollar wage. And no amount of whining will change that. Yeah those USA workers are such a pile of chit aint they. Have a look what the USA (or European) worker pays in taxes etc. Yes of course they should live in absolute squalor like those in India etc. In fact they should live in even worse conditions because they expect a reasonable standard of life. Yeah that will teach them... Why do their kids need health and education. That is such an unwanted expense. We need to pull down Europe and the USA to the real world livings standards. You are so right -g- /edit.. please tell all those illegal immigrants to go back where they came from. They cost too much in the UK for a start. The seats in the park are already taken up by Wallmart employees.

To: Stock Farmer who wrote (64495)	9/12/2003 11:48:19 PM
From: Lizzie Tudor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 77397

Maybe things work out this way occassionally but many times they do not. Oracle is an example of a company who followed all the rules from a Milton Freidman textbook. The result was their market fell into the same trough as the lowest cost labor. Its hysterical to watch though.

To: Stock Farmer who wrote (64495)	9/13/2003 11:28:04 AM
From: Aggie	Respond to of 77397

John, hello, A very good post. I work in a completely different discipline, one which was embraced the idea of overseas postings and development for nearly a century now: Oil and Gas. As an industry group we are perhaps a bit further into the cycle you portray. I have been working overseas worldwide for about 15 years now, and I have a couple of observations on your post: Agree completely on cycling of foreign talent through the mother ship. The oil business has been doing this for years, but it carries with it the understanding that the lower cost of wages is offset at least partially by the higher cost of transplant, training and development. In my experience only the top 5 - 10 % percentile performance people are worth exporting due to this - however it adds demonstrably to the strengths of the company. Taken further, the people who are exported and developed (but not advanced through the ranks quickly enough) are not usually too keen to return to the native land to distribute their knowledge and experience to benefit the local economies. This concept (pollination to benefit the homeland) usually features prominently in the business-to-government business agreements, whereby the company agrees to limit the number of expatriate staff in order to develop the local staff. However, once the local staff can compete on the world stage, they usually prefer to do so because the money's much better. This is the case where I am working now (Caribbean / S America). The industry here is populated with lots of expatriates because trained locals are scarce on the ground - they're working worldwide for movie star wages. This has been going on for at least 40 years here locally, and it shows no sign of abatement. Regards to all, Aggie

To: Stock Farmer who wrote (64495)	9/13/2003 1:28:28 PM
From: maceng2	Respond to of 77397

Economic Darwinism in action yes tell that to your wife and kids. Who in the USA needs education, health, pension plans or any of that useless chit -g- It isn't rocket science. yeah we hear that all the time -g- <<ex Wage Slave Executive, now Chief Domestic Engineer :)>> yep lets see those skills -g-