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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (75392)	9/23/2003 3:49:06 PM
From: Lane3	Respond to of 82486

No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn Tue Sep 23,10:07 AM ET Add Oddly Enough - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Philip Pullella VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls. Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship. According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses. The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition. If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe. According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function." The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests. Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans. Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified. The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building." Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause. Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events. The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version. The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets. It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion. Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer. "Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

To: Lane3 who wrote (75392)	9/24/2003 6:28:32 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

I had problems with SI yesterday, and finally gave up..... The idea that he cannot afford counsel might make you wary to ensure that a defendant get a fair trial, although a pro bono client might have unusually good counsel, ironically. The supposed purity of motive might lead one to think that the counsel was a crusader who was persuaded of his client's innocence. In the end, though, it is just someone ensuring adequate representation.....

To: Lane3 who wrote (75392)	9/24/2003 12:34:46 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Personally, I start out suspicious of clients who have attorneys working pro bono in criminal defense. This is because there are in every state and jurisdiction public defense attorneys paid by the state. Some are excellent, some are terrible, most are about as good as the prosecutors, which makes it mostly a fair fight. Monied defendants can afford to pay defense attorneys, so pro bono attorneys only get into the case where there isn't money involved. Why, then, do they get involved? Some get involved to support a principle they believe in, but often then they are as interested in making their point as in the client's interests -- not that they wouldn't represent the client well, I'm not saying that, but they aren't there primarily because of the client but because of some principle they want to support, so their participation doesn't say anything good about the clinet necessarily. One place this happens, for example, is either liberal or conservative public interest law firms taking on clients to make political points. (The Clinton situation brought these folks out in droves.) Other times it's because the case is high profile and they want to make a public splash or get their name in front of possible future clients or the like. Again, they will usually do a good job for the client, but also again, they are really using the client for their purposes so you can't think that their involvement says anything in particular about the client. Sometimes, in some jurisdictions, they are assigned by some bar program or the court, so again, that's got nothing to do with whether the client is innocent or guilty. So in none of these cases does the fact that a pro bono attorney is involved say anything about the client's guilt or innocence. In a very few cases, often ones where the pro bono attorneys are part of a law school clinic program, they really are going to bat for a particular client when they honestly believe the justice system has failed the client and they have made a determination that they want to go in and achieve justice. The Innocence Project is a good example of this. See innocenceproject.org In these cases, at least the attorneys are involved because they do believe that the client got a raw deal. But usually they don't get involved until after the initial trial. So if you hear of a client going to trial with pro bono attorneys, you have to ask, what's in it for them. As with statistics, sometimes they are what they seem to be, but you should never assume so until you've done a thorough evaluation!