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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (116660)	10/12/2003 6:57:20 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Yes, there are Jews and Muslims who marry. But it is illegal, and not recognized by the Israeli State: Marriages performed for Jews outside of Israel that are valid in the foreign country in which they were performed receive retroactive recognition by the State of Israel. This includes civil marriages and non-Orthodox marriages. Citizens of Israel who marry in the course of a visit to a foreign country or travel abroad for this purpose will also receive such recognition. Marriages that cannot take place in Israel (such as the marriage of a Jew and a Muslim) will not be accepted retroactively. 216.239.53.104 In Israel, marriage licenses are given only through religious ceremonies, but a 1929 law makes it a crime punishable by six months in jail for a rabbi, priest or Muslim cleric to marry people of different religions. In most cases, "mixed" couples get around the legal problem by having one person convert to the other's religion. Some couples keep separate religions and go abroad for a civil ceremony. According to international law, the Israeli government must honor marriage licenses awarded in other countries. freep.com For comparison: Islamic law: A Muslim man may have up to four wives. He may marry a non-Muslim provided she is of the "people of the Book" (i.e. a Christian or Jew), but a Muslim woman may not. 216.239.57.104 -- Any children born to the wife will be considered Muslim. They will usually also be considered citizens of the father's country. -- The husband's permission is always needed for the children to leave an Islamic country despite the fact that the children will also have, for example, American citizenship. Foreign immigration authorities can be expected to enforce these regulations. The ability of U.S. consular officers to aid an American woman who wishes to leave the country with her children is very limited. -- The wife may be divorced by her husband at any time with little difficulty and without a court hearing. -- At a certain point in age, the children will come under the custody of the father or his family. -- In Islamic countries, the wife will need the permission of her husband to leave the country. 216.239.53.104 In Nazi Germany: The Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935 deprived German Jews of their rights of citizenship, giving them the status of "subjects" in Hitler's Reich. The laws also made it forbidden for Jews to marry or have sexual relations with Aryans or to employ young Aryan women as household help. (An Aryan being a person with blond hair and blue eyes of Germanic heritage.) factsofisrael.com

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (116660)	10/12/2003 11:09:06 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

Nadine, there seems to be a lot of smoke around the issue of who is allowed to marry whom, and not just when the Catholic priests start waving their smoke machines around during superstitious rituals, to scare the bogeys or whatever they are doing. Knowing how rabid religious people are and how intolerant and how bigoted and how irrational and how unfounded their religions are, I am certain that the Jewish zealots build a lot of barriers, both social and legal, to miscegenation. I doubt that my ideas about human rights and anti-chimpoid behaviour come from "scripture". Ideas don't occur in only a single person. They arise spontaneously in many people at around the same time because of social and scientific and other experiences which swarms of individuals living at the time process in their ponderings and discuss and 'independently' come up with. The scripturists would merely have co-opted ideas, such as "Thou shalt not steal". That's not a religious idea. It's a social context idea. It doesn't take many millennia of living with property to figure out that if stealing is acceptable, social mayhem and lack of competitive position of the alpha males with neighbouring tribes would result. They need orderly, progressive societies, with property and production. The smarter societies even figure out that the alpha males stealing isn't all that smart either, so they protect private property against alpha males. Unfortunately, no states yet have figured out that protecting private property against the state is a good idea too, but that'll come and some states are aware that it is an issue to be managed to avoid killing the geese laying the golden eggs. So I think I'll keep 'scripture' in the wacko cult box. If some of the ideas expressed make sense, [usually very superficial cliches and slogans rather than suitable operating manual instructions for a complex heterogeneous society], that doesn't mean the other stuff does too. Any con-man knows to include liberal sprinklings of truth to make the deceits palatable. Your wild generalisations about whether Jews or Arabs make better spouses as though they are all clones are silly. I bet there are plenty of Jewish men and women and Arab men and women who would be fine spouses for each other. If you add the religious part it would cut down the numbers a lot. The whole point of marriage is the filtering of human DNA and cultural attributes to produce likely success. The job of young people is to carry out that process. They seem to be wildly enthusiastic about their task, whether Arab, Jew, Moslem, Jewish, man or woman. [Maybe there's a separate name for Jew the religion and Jew the DNA - I don't know what it is]. From what Jacob and Bilow write, there does seem to be a lot of smoke in the Israeli marital anti-miscegenation laws. I didn't realize the USA only got rid of such extreme racism in the 1950s. The USA still has lots of racist laws. I think we'll have to ban New Zealanders from marrying them since Chuck Swindells has got issues with New Zealand [needs a separate rant]. We don't want miscegenation with America. Hu Jintao is coming to NZ in a week or so. Maybe he'll be more friendly and not try to force weapons of mass destruction into our harbours. If the USA doesn't love us and want to marry us, maybe China will. Mqurice PS: Unfortunately, NZ is producing racist laws as fast as the USA these days and trying to build a brand new apartheid system based on the absurd and racist Treaty of Waitangi, which assumed that young people would never hop the fence. Which they've been doing since before the treaty. Unsurprisingly.