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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (116676)	10/12/2003 8:56:25 PM
From: Sig	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<<Here's the road we are on:>>> Naaaaaah, you are the one off on a detour again. <<1. the U.S. and allies continue to occupy Muslim territory, continue to bully and kill them, trying to force their capitulation. >>> So the US and all its allies, which vary from time to time, are all a bunch of badies out to kill people? And force a capitulation to what demand? Who are the good guys? Name some- the French? Arafat? <<<2. More and more Muslim nations, and then sub-national organizations, acquire nuclear weapons.>>> And what is your answer - back out of the ME, lock our borders, and do nothing about it? <<3. they use them against the U.S., either in our homeland, or against our allies, or in our overseas Empire.>> Thanks for explaining why the US is building up its security and armed forces, and for justifying the efforts of the Administration >>4. The level of fear in the U.S. increases vastly from today's level. >> BS, The US converted fear caused by 911 into action. Or did you miss that? <<5. McCarthy, and his methods, are re-habilitated, with Muslims assigned the role Communists had in the Cold War. 6. Anyone in the U.S. who advocates compromise, multilateralism, respect for other nation's sovereignty, listening to the issues raised by Muslims, any non-violent solution to any foreign policy problem, they are all silenced. Anyone who criticizes Israel is branded as anti-Semitic. The Peace movement is labelled as subversives, traitors, weaklings. >>> That does not leave many left over, maybe they will shut down this thread. <<<You are an Authoritarian, who believes in using Fear and Force to unify the nation against the Others. You reject all the ideas of the Enlightenment. You pretend to be defending the country, while attacking the principles it was founded on. You are the real Enemy Within.>>> Making new friends again are you? Sig

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (116676)	10/13/2003 12:54:16 PM
From: Chas.	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

someone, somewhere needs to tag your arse really well so that others may be aware of the disease you are carrying. I'm sure what you say here is mostly disregarded and there is no real audience anyway. I sincerely hope you don't spill this swill at any public places where you reside.

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (116676)	10/17/2003 8:32:37 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Those are simply your paranoid speculations. Supposedly in about 3/4 of Iraq, our soldiers now go about their duties unarmed. It is only in the Sunni triangle that there are problems. In there, that army that evaporated is still harassing the troops. It is at least equally probable that the US will kill or silence them and Iraq will then be on its way again. they are all silenced. How? The 1st amendment is still valid. How? What columnists are in jail for criticizing George Bush? If they shut up because they find that almost everyone disagrees with them, that is because they don't want to lose their plush jobs, not because the gov't has shut them up. And the 1st amendment is a limitation on the gov't, not private citizens. McCarthy, and his methods, are re-habilitated McCarthy was right, buddy. You keep ignoring that. The Peace movement is labelled as subversives, traitors, weaklings. The Peace Movement acquired its reputation because it was often closely associated with the nation's enemies. Another self-inflicted wound. our overseas Empire. Where exactly would that be? Diego Garcia? Puerto Rico? Most land that the US gov't has control over is part of the US, its inhabitants are citizens, and it is reperesented in Congress. They were scared and silent. Weaklings. As you said. You are an Authoritarian, who believes in using Fear and Force to unify the nation against the Others. You reject all the ideas of the Enlightenment. You pretend to be defending the country, while attacking the principles it was founded on. You are the real Enemy Within. Exactly which principles have I attacked? Representation? Great idea! Freedom of speech? Because I say you're full of it, I'm depriving you of it? Aren't you then depriving me by critising me? Freedom of Religion? I'm an atheist and agnostic on alternate days; I have more to lose from its loss than most.

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (116676)	10/23/2003 4:01:41 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The Road We Are On: <2. More and more Muslim nations, and then sub-national organizations, acquire nuclear weapons.> Recent news indicate both Iran and Saudi Arabia, the two Muslim nations controlled by the most virulent anti-American ideology, are irrevocably and unstoppably on the road to acquiring nuclear weapons. Time frame: many months, to a few years. The Bush Administration War Plan (serial Regime Change, Americanizing the Middle East, dominoes falling, taking the battle to the enemy's Safe Havens, garrisoning the oil fields, propping up every thug who calls himself our ally) is, as an overall plan and in every significant sub-plan, in total ruins. We are overextended and overcommitted, our methods serve only to increase opposition. We are not loved, and increasingly we are not feared. Our allies have abandoned us, and our enemies grow bolder. Nuclear weapons will be used against the U.S. Perhaps not on our soil, perhaps only against our soldiers somewhere in the 120 nations we have sent them to, or against our close allies. Maybe tomorrow, maybe not for 20 years; I have no idea exactly where. But it's coming. The list of possible alternative and better futures is steadily being pruned away. Then: <5. McCarthy, and his methods, are re-habilitated> We are already seeing the first signs of this: The huge popularity of Ann Coulter, the tolerance of General Boykin's BibleAndSword fanaticism, the general acceptance by Americans of an American Gulag at Guantanamo, the mass arrests/imprisonment/expulsions without trial or due process of Muslims in the U.S., the close relations of religious leaders like Franklin Graham to our military and civilian leadership, the expulsion of a Labor MP who spoke against the war: The charges faced by Mr Galloway were understood to be that: he incited Arabs to fight British troops he incited British troops to defy orders he incited Plymouth voters to reject Labour MPs he threatened to stand against Labour he backed an anti-war candidate in Preston news.bbc.co.uk After a nuclear attack, I expect: 1. A "National Unity" government in the U.S., a virtual or actual merger of the Democratic and Republican Parties. 2. A purge of all pacifists and multilateralists from that single permanent governing Party. A few cranks, like Byrd, will resign or be expelled; almost everyone else will go along, and keep their doubts to themselves. It will become dangerous to express doubt. 3. The Green and Libertarian Parties (the only remaining Opposition) will be suppressed, using the same methods used to destroy the Socialist Party during WW1. Their leaders will be imprisoned, their newspapers closed, their organizations dismantled. Speaking favorably of them, will mean losing job and friends, being blacklisted and spied on. 4. All the Constitutional guarantees will be ignored for the duration of the war. The war will be permanent. 5. The plan for Total Information Awareness will be revived, and made pervasive. The technology exists, for the first time, to achieve the Authoritarian Nirvana: keeping track of what everyone does all the time. This process will be institutionalized, mostly automated, and made an accepted background to all our daily activities. After a while, we won't even notice the ubiquitous cameras. Every time we use a credit card, buy a book (or borrow one at the library), access the internet, send an email, 20 times a day, the Office of Homeland Security will know. I know, the above sounds implausible and paranoid. But ask yourself this: doesn't it sound less paranoid now, than it did before 9/11? What's the trend?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (116676)	10/31/2003 6:53:31 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Greenpeace targeted by Bush Administration: guardian.co.uk This combines: 1. Collective punishment, attacking an organization for the acts of 2 of its members. 2. selective enforcement of the law, for political reasons 3. silencing dissent by threatening political opponents with fines, jail, dismantling their organizations (using the strategy of bankrupting them). 4. labelling nonviolent protestors (who are protesting illegal activity) as "security risks" and then denying them normal access (not letting the Greenpeace ship dock in Miami harbor). First they came for the terrorists and I did not speak out because I was not a terrorist. Then they came for Greenpeace...