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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70756)	10/20/2003 1:44:56 PM
From: average joe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

"And women cannot drive." Is that opinion, statement of fact or a generalization?

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70756)	10/20/2003 2:03:35 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

> There were ZERO complaints about their treatment of women. So you are saying that the men there did not champion women's right issues. That doesn't surprise me. Even in the US, it was a rare man who would have done that in the 70s or even 80s. Don't get me wrong; I am all for human rights and last I checked women were half this species. But I don't think it is reasonable to have expected north African men to pick up the cause of Saudi women's rights (and to a lesser extent their own's). > none of them would quite meet with NOW's approval. Well, none of them meets my approval either. But guess what? I don't live there and am not from there and should not have a say in it. When the time comes for me to deal with Arab families, I choose my friends and acquaintances among those whom I approve of. That will be my choice. A choice which by the way would work wonders if our government would fallow. But I don't go on passing absolute judgments on them and try to arm twist them into living their lives according my liking. > One country I spent some time in over there was Tunisia Along with Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria are also not too bad. Among non-Arab Muslim countries Turkey and Pakistan have had female heads of state. And Iranian women seem to be doing fine, though certainly not without problems. > The complaint was that this might spread back home. And when that happens, it will be because the society as a whole is ready for it and not to please feminists of the West. After all, who do think raised those men whom complained about the spread of women's rights to their country? I doubt their fathers had the last and only say in their upbringing. > Oh, back to the Saudis. I forgot a couple of things... Yes I know. Like I said, there is nothing about Saudis that I like. Did you by any chance spend time in Lebanon? Their women are famous for opting for plastic surgery and high fashion the first chance they get. Hardly what you would expect in a Saudi culture. I find it interesting that nobody complained why Bush Sr. used American troops as a gun for hire to restore a corrupt monarchy to power in Kuwait. Let's face it. Saddam had taken over Iraq and the Emir of Kuwait would have done anything to get his cushy job back. At the very least we could have pushed for women's right to vote. But that would imply some semblance of democracy and we both know we prefer a friendly dictator over anything else. Ultimately social change must come from inside. I am strongly in favor of neither supporting nor discouraging major socio-political changes in other countries. ST

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (70756)	10/20/2003 2:18:59 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 70976

Since we are on the topic of Saudis and their treatment of women, you should note an interesting side effect to their culture. A Saudi man's worth and social respect is decided greatly on the behavior of women in his household. It is within the Saudi women's grasp to easily drive their men to suicide or otherwise ruin their lives. Control is only an illusion. The "oppressor" has it so long as the "oppressed" allows him to. I think Gandhi and MLK proved this point well. ST