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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (118714)	11/6/2003 12:15:49 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Violence of all sorts is going on in Iraq. It's perpetrated by a wide variety of groups, each with its own unique agenda. Well you certainly seem to have a grasp of the symptoms... But what I'm looking for is a viable alternative to the "cure" currently being applied.. And it isn't the UN.. But it's well known among people who read newspapers that a widespread belief among the Iraqis is that Jordan and the UN conspired with the US to conquer Iraq. That's just BS... Few Iraqis believe the UN was interested in "conquering Iraq".. But just to humour this specious argument, how will putting the UN in charge positively alter Iraqi public opinion and decrease the resistance by these terrorist groups?? As to what the Iraqis believe about the ICRC I cannot say. No one has reported any stories about that. And herein lies an obvious flaw in your logic. You have deluded yourself into believing a few criminal elements bent upon returning power to the Baathists, or turning Iraq into a Islamo-Fascist state, actually represent the majority of Iraqis. I do know is that before Bush started this war, we were losing almost no troops in the Middle East. Just attacks on the USS Cole.. Khobar Towers, the embassy bombings (perpetrated by Al-Qaeda), and all of those civilians at the WTC and Pentagon.. All sailors, airmen, embassy staff, and civilians.. But almost no soldiers... So I guess you're right on that one.. You've failed to answer my comment that Bush has traded a situation where we could bomb the Iraqis without fear of retribution for a situation where the Iraqis can bomb us with little fear of retribution. Do you admit that this is true? I believe I did previously.. But once again.. To contain Iraq, the US was required to maintain forces in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Turkey.. One of Bin Laden's "war cries" was how the Saudis had permitted infidels to occupy that "holy land".. That led to 9/11.. And btw, recall that the US containment of Iraq was not officially "blessed" by the UNSC, nor were the no-flight zones which protected the Kurds and Shiites. So let's substitute the word "repercussions" for retribution... Bin Laden was not created in a vacuum. While instability was perpetuated by a nearly constant limited war with Iraq, with sanctions that harmed the general population, Bin Laden was able to generate resentment for the US presence in SA. But one more point is that the UN was perpetuating the situation by not showing sufficient backbone in enforcing its resolutions through force.. Think of the people who died as a result of those sanctions (a big criticism for the past 10 years by peaceniks). Certainly that number was far more than the loss of life inflicted by the war. But the UN has never advanced the cause of "regime change". It's in conflict with its charter. It's like putting an unarmed Mayberry sheriff like Andy Taylor in charge of SE Washington DC... He might be able to talk a good show, but eventually some young punk is going to tell his "cracka @ss to FO"... Hawk

To: Bilow who wrote (118714)	11/8/2003 3:51:12 PM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "But what I'm looking for is a viable alternative to the "cure" currently being applied. And it isn't the UN." And it sure as tootin' ain't you either. In fact, there is no cure for Iraq's problems, except the simple passage of time. Just because you want something REALLY, REALLY BAD doesn't mean that you can have it. Re: "But just to humour this specious argument, how will putting the UN in charge positively alter Iraqi public opinion and decrease the resistance by these terrorist groups?" I'm not in favor of putting the UN in "charge". I don't think that (a) the UN would accept it, (b) be able to pacify Iraq even as well as the US can, or (c) have the gonads to accept the body bags any better than the US. What I think we should do is dump the problem on the UN, which will then run like a horse on fire from the place. Maybe a better way would be to dump the problem on the Arab league, since at least they share the same nutcase religion and language with the locals. In short, the Iraq "problem" is a hopeless case, if what you want is to make the pacify the place with force. On the other hand, Iraq will eventually pacify itself if all foreign influences are removed (just as they have pacified themselves so many times in their 5000 year history). Re: "Just attacks on the USS Cole.. Khobar Towers, the embassy bombings (perpetrated by Al-Qaeda), and all of those civilians at the WTC and Pentagon." We're losing about 40 KIA in Iraq per month. We've been tilted towards Israel for 30 years. We've been taking terror attacks for something like 20 years. All that crap you're bringing up amounts to around 1 soldier KIA per month. The two figures are not even of the same order of magnitude. And for that matter, we've been in Iraq for less than a year and since the terror incidents you're so worried about were stretched over many years, we don't actually have any data that shows that attacks on US military forces outside Iraq have now halted. In fact, our citizens HAVE been killed outside Iraq in those 8 months. Eventually, Al Qaeda will strike again outside Iraq, and this will provide proof that our invading Iraq did not even stop the small attacks we took previously, but instead simply increased our KIA totals uselessly. And the heck are you going to say when Bush or his successor pulls us out with his tail between his legs? What good will those kids' blood in Iraq be then? -- Carl P.S. This is the first half of message #reply-19480787 to Hawkmoon. The system made me split it up.