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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: lorne who wrote (118725)	11/6/2003 8:31:51 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 281500

Some people don't want a choice. Some people love regimentation- think about the people here, in the US, who don't tolerate dissent very well. Think about Ann Coulter. Those people are exactly like people in Muslim countries who don't tolerate dissent, and I'm sure you wouldn't argue they aren't patriotic. Patriots can love almost any system, freedom has nothing to do with loving your country. In fact, zealous patriots are often terribly intolerant people, and they don't actually seem to handle freedom of speech very well- at least not when the freedom is given to others. I realize you would like to make a distinction here, but it's a distinction without a difference. I want you to try to think back to WWII, and remember how much Germans loved their fatherland. Germany was not a free country, and Germany dd horrible things, but Germans were fiercely patriotic, even zealously and madly patriotic, nevertheless. We cannot infer that freedom, or goodness, or anything but love of country, is part of patriotism. Patriotism is like religion- you can see in it a reflection of the deity involved, and how the will of the deity is implemented. But the reflection of the character of the deity, has nothing to do with the belief in that deity, in terms of the believers, just as a lack of freedom in countries, has nothing to do with the patriotism of the citizens in those countries.

To: lorne who wrote (118725)	11/6/2003 2:45:19 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

re: <there is a difference.> What you're saying, is that American patriotism is Good, and Iraqi patriotism is Bad. American patriotism is honest, for the common good, inclusive, promotes freedom, everything Good, while Iraqi patriotism is the opposite. Iraqis, in your view, don't have a legitimate patriotism. You de-legitimise, not just Iraqi patriotism, but that of all the ME nations. All the Muslim nations. How about China and Cuba and Estonia? Are their nationalisms legitimate and Good? Is anyone's nationalism legitimate, other than ours? The U.S. has become so powerful, and so arrogant, that we no longer believe any other nation has the right to self-rule. We define the exercise of our sovereignty, the protection of our "national interests", so broadly that it means no other nation can be sovereign, no other nation is allowed to protect their own interests, not even on their own soil. Bolton's speech re ICC, and my commentary: Message 18759471 He says it quite clearly, this idea that only American nationalism is legitimate, so we are justified in the totally unrestricted and unilateral exercise of power over Others.