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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Orcastraiter who wrote (489645)	11/8/2003 10:29:44 PM
From: sylvester80	Respond to of 769670

Agreed. Message 19481597

To: Orcastraiter who wrote (489645)	11/8/2003 10:52:51 PM
From: J_F_Shepard	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

"The Civil war was fought on the issue of sovranty and states rights." What states rights issues were in question?....I know of only one....slavery. I've heard your quote attributed to Lincoln a few times but never saw an authoritative source.....you have one?

To: Orcastraiter who wrote (489645)	11/9/2003 2:17:57 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

The Confederate Flag is indeed a racist symbol and it was racist from the very first day it was used to lead Confederate troops against the Union. “…the new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.” (Alec Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, 1861) fordham.edu Here we see the Vice President of the Confederacy flatly stating both the cause of secession and of the war. He claims the then new Confederate Constitution had settled "forever" the question of the proper status of blacks and that this issue was the cause of Southern Secession and also of the Southern effort in the Civil War. Since now we see that the Southern Constitution had settled "forever" the question of blacks, and that this was why the South was fighting, we only now need to see how the Southern Constitution settled the issue. From the Southern Confederate Constitution Article I: Section IX.IV "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed." Article IV: Section III "The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States." yale.edu We see that the question Southerners had settled "forever" was that blacks would be slaves and would be transported to other regions as slaves. The notion that Southerners thought slavery was about to end is quite false. Quite a few Southerners had already moved west with their slaves to use them in agriculture and also in mining; and as the nation began to industrialize the plan was to use slaves in factories. (continued next post...)

To: Orcastraiter who wrote (489645)	11/9/2003 2:20:15 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

The record is replete with Confederate statements making it absolutely clear that the Confederacy was formed and maintained to protect and expand slavery. These statements come from official Confederate documents such as the 'Declarations of Causes,' they come from Confederate leaders such as Alec Stephens and Jeff Davis, they come from Southern governors, Senators, Congressmen, newspaper editorials, Southern clergymen and even from Southern commoners, such as the captured Confederate who declared he was fighting because "yall want us to live with niggers!" The issue of "states rights" always had built into it the right to own slaves. It is erroneous to ever attempt to separate these issues as Neo-Confederates often aim to do because such a separation is simply not supported by the historical record. Few reasonable people believe the claim "Heritage Not Hate," regarding the Confederate Flag because Neo-Confederates are generally too dishonest about historical facts that are quite verifiable. I don't here assume you are dishonest, but I do assume you ignorant since you make the same mistakes in fact and in reasoning common amongst Neo-Confederates. When you by implication claim Lincoln proves the war was not about slavery, for example, you make a very severe error. Lincoln was clearly against slavery and he, in his second inaugural address, even declared that slavery was the cause of the war. yale.edu. Yet in a letter to Horce Greeley he said his primary goal was not to end slavery but protect the Union. cr.nps.gov. When you use this latter statement out of context as you have done here, you betray two problems: 1. You obviously do not understand these positions present no contradiction at all and when placed in their historical context this fact becomes quite obvious. Southerners split the Union and then fired upon a federal installation because of slavery. Lincoln, as President, had the primary motive to preserve a Union that had been split because of slavery. This is quite factual and most consistent. 2. Like Neo-Confederates, you fail to realize that you cannot prove the Southern motive for fighting the Civil War by appealing to the motives of Lincoln, the Northern Commander. I marvel that Neo-Confederates consistently fail here. They wish to refer to Lincoln, the Northern Commander, to contend that the Southern Confederate Flag is not linked to the fight for slavery. If you wish to show that the Confederate Flag is not linked to slavery, you must show Southern leaders, prior to and during the war, declaring that slavery is not the issue over which the South split the Union and engaged in battle. That is a thing you simply cannot do because such statements do not exist in the record to any substantial degree if at all. (Continued next post - >)

To: Orcastraiter who wrote (489645)	11/9/2003 2:21:01 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 769670

You commit yet another gross error in reason by contrasting Lee's position to that of Lincoln. Unlike Lincoln, Lee was no policy maker. He was simply a worker-bee executing the will of a Confederacy being led by men such as Jeff Davis and Alec Stephens. (Nevertheless while Lee was not virulently pro-slavery, but he did think slavery was a good disciplinary mechanism for blacks. He was ultimately as detached from knowledge of human identity as were his leaders. This undoubtedly allowed him to make what Scott declared was the 'biggest mistake of his life.') We do not derive the meaning of war from those who follow orders. We most reasonably derive ultimate meaning from those with power to give the orders. The final flaw in your position here has to do with your treatment of the Emancipation Proclamation (EP). Neo-Confederates very often state with not a little excitement that Lincoln's EP 'never freed a single slave.' They are apparently dishonest or ignorant of the facts surrounding the EP. Even during the war Lincoln recognized the South's right to have slaves. His aim had always been to allow slavery where it existed, but only halt its expansion westward. When he finally decided freeing the slaves was advantageous, he freed only Southern slaves because of a law that allowed the Union to seize the property of its enemies during wartime. This law was brought to Lincoln's attention by a Northern General name Ben Butler. Lincoln accordingly freed slaves in rebellious states and not in border states that had remained in the Union. There was nothing unsavory here or hypocritical at all. Lincoln was simply being consistent with American law. The Confederate Flag is both a racist and un-American symbol. It is racist because it is linked to a system that officially aimed to oppress blacks "forever." It is un-American because this system literally fought against American - even openly declaring the Declaration of Independence "wrong." If the Declaration of Independence is wrong, then America does not have a right to exist. And indeed the Confederates literally declared in their writings that America had no right to exist. That is both as racist and un-American as is humanly possible. "The chief and immediate cause of the [Civil War] was slavery." encarta.msn.com