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To: energyplay who wrote (41512)	11/16/2003 2:21:45 AM
From: EL KABONG!!!	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi ep, Lots of people talking about energy independence with a mention of coal or nuclear. Some talk of technmological breakthroughs Speaking of energy independence, on this past Friday (I think), Germany took its first nuclear power station out of the power grid, and did not replace it with another nuclear site. Their eventual goal (by voter approved referendum) is to be nuclear free, and using only renewable energy sources by the year 2024 (I think that was the year). The energy "experts" over there are pulling out whatever collective hairs they have left on their collective heads. While this first shut down doesn't really hurt much of anything in the way of supply or grid management, as these plants continue to close, they cannot be replaced by coal, gas or other non-renewable sources. Mostly they intend to rely on solar powered electric generation plus some wind generators. "Experts" outside of Germany are closely monitoring what happens, because no knowledgeable people believe that Germany can meet 100% of its electric needs via solar and wind generation, at least not cost effectively. Commercial and individual consumer electric rates are projected to skyrocket over the next 15 years, starting about 6 years from now when the pains begin to be felt throughout the system, and extensive "blackouts" are projected for periods during extended sun-less days and or lack of wind in the near vicinity of generators. KJC

To: energyplay who wrote (41512)	11/16/2003 3:23:01 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

ep, Re: Energy independence through technonlogy (with no hard choices) is like technology magic for Democrats. I disagree completely. The Democrats problem is not that the solutions aren't available or worth seeking. It is the dunderheaded way that they couch the discussion. What would be a rational, 'green', and sensible approach is to vastly decentralize the electrical generation system of the United States. This is, of course, completely anathema to the FERC, the utes and the IPPs. Because they see a real loss of revenue to the utility industry if ever the U.S. had a sensible generation scheme. Co-generation at industrial plants has largely been made illegal by fiat in this country. Not because there is anything wrong with the approach, but because the utes and IPPs have put way more money into bribing the bastards in Congress than have the industrial users of electricity. Furthermore, sensible renewable energy development including wind and biomass which are cost competitive today, and solar which may well be competititve with conventional fuels in 20 years with adequate basic science and research support, get very short shrift in Washington. The currently in-play omnibus Energy Bill is nothing but a sop for the dinosaur producers of fossil fuel energy with a good dose of largesse for the nuke nuts as well. There's no real effort in the bill to advance the U.S. into the future. Back to distributed generation. This is the key to the future. And the guys who pay the bribes that write the bills are all against this sensible solution. So, I don't decry the Democrats for a sensible vision of how we can create a more secure, energy-independent future. I decry the Democrats for taking the bribes of the same guys who prefer the handouts the Republicans are snickering about in this photo. These guys know they just robbed the citizens of the United States, once again: nytimes.com What I do decry the Democrats for is a drastic inability to create the dialogue on the energy situation that will sell a sensible future.