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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: alan w who wrote (35974)	12/3/2003 12:31:31 AM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Alan <<1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)>> 11 Cor: <<And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:>> The Hebrews 9:27 We all live in a corruptible body, as Paul did. But he yearned to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. It is my understanding, except in a few special circumstances, that the dead did not rise until the Coming of the Lord in 70AD. After that date, all who die that are saved immediately appear in an incorruptible body with Christ in Heaven. James

To: alan w who wrote (35974)	12/3/2003 1:30:47 AM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

No I believe I will put on incorruption as they did immediately upon my death. I think I am failing to explain a key component to my understanding here... I believe that there are not 2 resurrections for each person as do many - one for their soul and then a later one for their physical bodies. I do believe that are 2 resurrections - both have to do with the soul. 1. We are "resurrected" "quicken" upon spiritual birth here while we are in our bodies - this is the first resurrection Rev 20:6 Happy and holy, is he that hath part in the first resurrection: upon these, the second death, hath no authority; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him for the thousand years.( Thousand years is 40 year period from cross to judgement in 70 A.D. ) This is witnessed in Paul's words here : Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things,(persecutions and sufferings) we are more than conquering through him that hath loved us. (Conquering = Reigning) Second resurrection to those to whom the scriptures were written - could not go to heaven upon physical death. John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Those were the words of Christ to Nicodemus prior to the cross. NO ONE WENT TO HEAVEN BEFORE 70 A.D. EXCEPT CHRIST although it is argued Enoch and perhaps Elijah (a lot of doubt about Elijah however) This was written after the cross and the blood of the Lamb: Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Enoch however was not "resurrected" from a grave as he did not die physically - that is not what Christ was addressing. Christ plainly teaches that NO ONE had yet entered heaven except those who had come down from there - likely only speaking of Himself. This was written after the cross and the blood of the Lamb: Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. (important) So we have concrete evidence from scripture that no one went to heaven before the cross. (only the went to paradise or hades - both under the earth - place of rest or sleep) 1 Samuel 28:15 ¶ And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? (Up now down from heaven) Christ sat at the right hand of the Father "until" the Father had made His enemies - those who crucified and rejected Him - His footstool. Christ returned the second time (second coming) at 70 A.D. and vengeance was put upon Israel and the temple. It was then that those who "remained alive" were changed in a twinkling of an eye and caught up into the cloud to be with the Lord forever. Those of us who die after that time do not go through such a process. The promise was not to "future Christians" but those who were suffering at that time. Christ made the sacrifice - entered the true holy of holies not made with hands - returned again to the people to pronounce their forgiveness and the acceptance of the sacrifice and took His bride from the earth and from beneath the earth and turned the kingdom over to the Father. However I do still believe Christ remains a King forever. I think it comes down to how one views the trinity. However - I can not argue the how the verse is stated that you quoted me :-) Brian

To: alan w who wrote (35974)	12/3/2003 1:39:53 AM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

A little footnote on 1 Cor 15 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. I have no scripture to convince me we have "physical bodies" in the true eternal kingdom of God - but I do believe we have "bodies" 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 35 ¶ But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. You see Alan - when the Holy Ghost ascended upon Christ it came as a body but not as a physical body described as a dove. Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, I know of no one that believe the Holy Spirit had physical feathers - however it was in a "bodily form" I do not believe we will be 'uncontained' spirit nor that we will all be one big unified spirit. I believe we maintain our individuality or personhood but we have a unity similar to marriage - being "one flesh but not flesh" yet individuals. Brian