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Strategies & Market Trends : VOLTAIRE'S PORCH-MODERATED -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: abstract who wrote (60085)	12/19/2003 4:57:39 PM
From: Murrey Walker	Respond to of 65232

abstract, your desire of an exchange of ideas as opposed to character assassination is greatly appreciated. My two cents worth: As far back as one can go (regardless of political affiliation or lean) there are many instances where our government has done the bull in the china shop routine with foreign policy--particularly from WWII on. Our episode at Manzinar was a doozy. Going forward, misguided or not, our administrations have attempted every means conceivable to have its way. I'm not saying that power corrupts, but I'm saying that human nature does not stop at the city limits of Washington D.C. Right now, the Bush administration is under the microscope, and that they should be. IMHO, their efforts are more or less on target and well intended. That does not mean that mistakes have not been made--they have. However, on balance, I feel their decisions have been reasonably well thought out (commensurate with the times). As far as I'm concerned, those that like to taunt on the porch might just as well be talking to that red brick wall. Thanks for your well thought out comments.

To: abstract who wrote (60085)	12/20/2003 8:45:53 AM
From: Sully-	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 65232

Well, if you are as concerned & interested in learning the truth as you claim, here's your chance........... "I would prefer an exchange of ideas over the assassination of characters." Using Michael Moore as a standard bearer for the truth, facts & accuracy from the left is like me using a Right Wing Extremist as my source from the right. "In the recent past, the United States (myopically) supported and funded both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden in their efforts against American enemies, the consequence of which we have more recently endured." Well that may not be precisely the case. Besides, how would any alleged wrongdoing or myopia from the past make any actions by the Bush Administration wrong or improper today? More thoughts here......... Arms transfers to Iraq, 1973-2002 projects.sipri.se Message 19601325 Message 19601372 "There is a presumption that these evil-doers would not have been so evil without us enabling them." Well, I trust you've read those posts I've linked by now (there are many more below too). It seems that France, Germany, Russia & China may be the Great Satan & to a considerably lesser extent, the USA (for OBL it would be extremist Muslims who have funded him). Oh & no one told Saddam to start his wars or to gas the Kurds or to rape, torture & slaughter his own people. I doubt you or your peers honestly believe the USA "enabled" OBL to do his dirty deeds against the US repeatedly. " I am concerned that the American government frequently acts without sufficiently thinking about the consequences." Your prerogative is to be concerned. Great! I think Bush is acting carefully, thoughtfully & responsibly in this global war on terror. How about that Libya announcement? "As for Bush et al lying, I don't see what their motivation was. Lying would be too transparent a transgression. On the other hand, I can accept that they were hasty and stupidly relied on poor intelligence, or merely the self-conditioned power of wishful thinking." I haven't found any credible evidence of anyone from the Bush Administration lying about Iraq or in regard to the war on terror. As for haste, we gave Iraq more than 12 years to comply. Saddam steadfastly refused. After 9/11, the world was forever changed, No more playing games with brutal rouge regimes with known ties to terrorists & WMD programs. Period! "There is also the presumption that if the Bush administration thought there were no WMD they would not have gone to war." Well, it's a misperceived presumption. Even both Clinton's, Hans Blix, the UN, many liberal Democratic politicians & numerous intelligence agencies all agreed that Iraq had illegal WMD programs & tons of unaccounted for WMD's & materials. David Kay's reports have only added more proof of this (lot's of factual evidence of this linked below). Like I already said, 9/11 changed everything. Then there's the fact that Saddam chose not to comply with the Gulf War cease fire agreement & 18 subsequent UN resolutions. This was one of the main reasons for removing Saddam. This alone was legal justification for the removal of Saddam's regime. There were other legitimate reasons to remove Saddam cited by the Bush Administration too. Saddam's illegal WMD programs, not just the allegations of unaccounted for WMD's & WMD materials. Saddam's ties to & support of known terrorist groups, plus Saddam's brutally repressive regime that raped, tortured & slaughtered many hundreds of thousands of his citizens. Yes, all of these reasons had been cited by the Bush Administration as justifications to remove Saddam from power. The left has misled the whole world with lies, distortions & outrageous deceit by falsifying Bush's reasons for war to solely WMD & nothing else (Iraq is an "imminent threat" is another great example). Some of these lies were acts of treachery IMO. "What I want to know from the Right is what do you think happened to the WMD or the information about them that led Bush to wage war?" Well, I'm not exactly from the Right (unless just right of center is Right to you), but I already debunked WMD as the sole reason for the war. The irrefutable truth is that this war was about several clearly articulated reasons that a number of folks from the Bush Admin made publicly. I can't help that liberal politicians, liberal media & the anti-war left wing told numerous lies about all the reasons to remove Saddam. As for the WMD's, the WMD materials & the WMD programs, well, the evidence of the WMD programs is being well documented by David Kay. Saddam had improved his ability to quickly produce materials for WMD's. As for the unaccounted for WMD's & unaccounted for WMD materials, I don't know. Does that make Bush a liar? Does it make the war wrong? No way. Not if you include all the facts why we removed Saddam & ignore the lies from the left. Here's a little info on Saddam's improved WMD facilities from the CIA....... Iraqi Mobile Biological Warfare Agent Production Plants odci.gov More facts & reality........ France, Russia, Germany & China may have billions of reasons to worry defenddemocracy.org BIPARTISANSHIP ON WMD Message 19511188 Saddam sought missile factory, Iraqi files show Message 19551934 Informer affirms 'secret weapon' Message 19570364 An Intelligent Democrat . . . From the December 15, 2003 issue: on the Senate Intelligence Committee Message 19569702 False myths surround Iraq documenthttp://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=19572722 Saddam & Al Qaeda links Message 19506425 THIS STORY MUSTN'T DIE: Message 19509006 Short-Term Memo-ry? Message 19524519 The "New York Times" reluctantly covers the DOD memo Message 19520811 The Saddam-Osama Memo (cont.) A close examination of the Defense Department's latest statement Message 19524655 Missing Links Found Message 19534084 The evidence of an Iraq/al-Qaida connection hasn't gone away. Message 19534201 THE VISIBLE HAND The Iraqi Connection Message 19540240 About That Memo . . Message 19544207 Have opponents of the war been vindicated? Not so fast. siliconinvestor.com The 'imminence' spin Message 19469570 A Brief History of The Imminent Threat Canard Message 19469610 Sorting out the "imminent threat" debate Message 19508187 The Times Misfires (Again) on Bush's "Imminent Threat" Message 19612762 Once again, Democrats, to divert the public's attention from their persistent obstruction in the war on terrorism, are falsely accusing Republicans of challenging their patriotism. Message 19549075