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To: Lane3 who wrote (20649)12/20/2003 4:05:25 PM
From: LindyBill  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793801
 
This issue is really firming up. A combination of recoil to the Court decisions and the ability now to come out against something that offends a lot of people who normally keep their mouth shut about it. But the Republicans would be better off to shut up about it and let people vote without pushing it. When they attack they appear as Bigots.

December 21, 2003 - New York Times
Strong Support Is Found for Ban on Gay Marriage
By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE
and JANET ELDER

The latest New York Times/CBS News poll has found widespread support for an amendment to the United States Constitution to ban gay marriage. It also found unease about homosexual relations in general, making the issue a potentially divisive one for the Democrats and an opportunity for the Republicans in the 2004 election.

Support for a constitutional amendment extends across a wide swath of the public and includes a majority of people traditionally viewed as supportive of gay rights, including Democrats, women and people who live on the East Coast.

Attitudes on the subject seem to be inextricably linked to how people view marriage itself. For a majority of Americans — 53 percent — marriage is largely a religious matter. Seventy-one percent of those people oppose gay marriage. Similarly, 33 percent of Americans say marriage is largely a legal matter and a majority of those people — 55 percent — say they support gay marriage.

The most positive feelings toward gay people were registered among respondents under 30, and among those who knew gay people.

The nationwide poll found that 55 percent of Americans favored an amendment to the constitution that would allow marriage only between a man and a woman, while 40 percent opposed the idea.

The findings come after the highest court in Massachusetts ruled 4 to 3 last month that same-sex marriage was permissible under the state's Constitution. That ruling followed a 6-to-3 decision in late June by the United States Supreme Court striking down antisodomy laws.

President Bush had been noncommittal about a constitutional amendment immediately after the Massachusetts ruling, with the administration worried that support for a ban on gay marriage would alienate moderate voters. But last week Mr. Bush for the first time voiced his support, saying, "I will support a constitutional amendment which would honor marriage between a man and a woman, codify that."

The statement signals the White House's increasing confidence that it can exploit the matter in the presidential campaign, both to energize its evangelical supporters and to discredit the eventual Democratic nominee.

Most of the Democratic candidates oppose gay marriage but favor civil unions. Howard Dean, who is leading in the polls for the Democratic nomination, signed a law when he was governor of Vermont allowing civil unions, an action that Republicans have already used to portray him as too liberal for mainstream America.

The court rulings generated extensive publicity and concern, not only about same-sex marriage but also about having the courts set social agendas that have not been approved by the legislative process.

"We have found that the more people focus on it, the less they support it," said the Rev. Lou Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition, which strongly opposes gay marriage and is working actively for a constitutional ban.

The Times/CBS News poll was conducted from Dec. 10 through Dec. 13 in telephone interviews with 1,057 people. It carries a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points. Responses about gay rights tend to be influenced somewhat by the wording of the questions.

This poll and other surveys show that as the courts have extended legal rights to gays this year, Americans have become increasingly uncomfortable with same-sex relations.

For decades, a majority of Americans have not approved of homosexual relations. That had begun to change, until the Supreme Court ruling in June and the Massachusetts ruling in November. A New York Times/CBS News poll conducted in July found that 54 percent of respondents said homosexual relations should be legal. Only 41 percent of the respondents in the latest poll said they should be legal.

Richard Waters, 71, a retired elementary school teacher in Little Valley, N.Y., and a Republican, said in a follow-up interview to the poll that he strongly supported a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

"I think any kind of amendment that says `You shall not' will help," Mr. Waters said. "I just don't think it's right for two men to go parading around in public or for two women to be doing the things they do. It's against God's law. That's right in the Bible that it's wrong."

Theresa Eaton, 49, a financial analyst in Corona, Calif., and also a Republican, agreed.

"I still believe that marriage should be between a man and woman," she said. "If I knew that we had a neighbor who was gay, I would not let my nieces and nephews go close by there. I don't want to accept their lifestyle. It can be acquired and it is not right."

The poll also found that by a 61-34 margin, Americans oppose gay marriage. They are slightly more accepting of civil unions to give gays some of the same legal rights as married couples, with 54 percent opposed to civil unions and 39 percent supportive.

The Massachusetts ruling also gave new impetus in Congress to sponsors of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. An amendment, which would require passage by two-thirds of the House and Senate and three-fourths of the states, would override any state court ruling or legislation.

Representative Marilyn Musgrave, Republican of Colorado, who introduced a constitutional amendment in the House in May, said on Friday that she had 106 co-sponsors. The companion measure in the Senate still has only a handful of supporters.

"Homosexual activists have known that they're not going to get their way in the legislative arena, and they shopped around for activist judges," Ms. Musgrave said. "But if the definition of marriage is to be changed, it should be done by the American people, not four judges in Massachusetts."

Her measure would ban gay marriage. Some gay rights groups say its language is ambiguous on civil unions, but she said on Friday that her intent was to allow states to conduct civil unions but not let them be recognized in other states.

At the moment, only Vermont allows civil unions. In California, a domestic partnership bill giving gay couples limited rights is to go into effect in 2005, but it is under threat of a legal challenge.

Some groups on the religious right who are eager for a constitutional ban on gay marriage said Ms. Musgrave's measure did not go far enough. Mr. Sheldon, for one, said his group was seeking to ban civil unions and domestic partnership laws as well as same-sex marriage.

He said his group and others were lobbying President Bush to assert in his State of the Union address in January that he will also seek a ban on civil unions and domestic partnership laws. The groups are preparing to flood the White House with e-mail messages on the subject.

Jan LaRue, counsel to Concerned Women for America, a conservative religious policy organization, said her group was involved in a public education campaign on "why marriage is important and needs to be protected." She added, "We are part of a broad coalition that is using bumper stickers, newspaper ads, articles on our Web sites and assisting with amicus briefs."

Gay rights groups expressed dismay with the poll results but said they doubted that a constitutional amendment would pass the initial stage through Congress.

"The Republican House leadership is having its own internal fight to determine what to do," said Winnie Stachelberg, political director of the Human Rights Campaign.

"There is no consensus among conservatives, libertarians and Republicans," she said. "Many of them say they don't support marriage for same-sex couples, but to amend the Constitution for social issues is a very bad idea."

The last time the Constitution was amended for social purposes was in 1920, when alcohol was outlawed, but that prohibition was repealed in 1933.

Sanford Levinson, a constitutional expert at the University of Texas Law School in Austin, said it was extremely hard to amend the Constitution. If the ban on gay marriage passed the House and Senate, he said, opponents could stop it by getting the support of one house of the legislature in just 13 states.

Mr. Levinson said President Bush's support was "a free pass" because he probably knows how difficult it would be to get through Congress, let alone through 38 states.

"The idea is for Bush to throw red meat to the Republican right, secure in the knowledge that this is not going to go anywhere," he said. "If it did go anywhere, it would tear the Republican Party apart."

Even in an age when gay couples are routinely portrayed on television and constitute a prosperous demographic that advertisers have been overtly appealing to, the Times/CBS News poll found the country still sharply divided over homosexuality.

Half of the respondents said they viewed homosexual relations between adults as morally wrong. Moreover, an overwhelming majority, 87 percent, said they thought most people would not accept having same-sex couples married within their church, synagogue or place of worship. Sixty percent said they themselves would not accept such unions in their own places of worship.

"I want my children to grow up and be normal people like me and my father and my grandfather was," said Ziad Nimri, 41, a salesman and a Democrat who lives in Spokane, Wash. "I don't want my children to start getting ideas. They see it's out in the open and you see men kissing men on television these days."

Mr. Nimri said he was also worried that if gays were allowed to marry, they would get other rights too, like tax benefits. "Because they're a minority, they're going to start actually giving them more privileges than normal people would have," he said. "Minorities always tend to get more than your average person does."

One of the few people interviewed who was not opposed to legally recognized same-sex marriages was Cliff Martin, 47, an unemployed Democrat in Gainesville, Fla. "I think gays should be allowed to marry because it's not something that threatens other people," he said.

nytimes.com



To: Lane3 who wrote (20649)12/20/2003 4:24:44 PM
From: LindyBill  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793801
 
Great, great, Article!

Rebuilding Iraq Is ... Nothing a Few Middle-Class Guys Couldn't Solve
By JOHN TIERNEY
John Tierney, who spent several months reporting in Iraq, is a correspondent in the Times's Washington bureau.

Before getting into the many reasons freedom is doomed in Iraq, consider a cheery counterexample. If you believe the political-science dictum that the bourgeoisie is the essential first ingredient for democracy, then there is at least one bit of good news in Baghdad today. Nader Hindo has come back to do business.

Never mind the car bombs, the missile attacks, the kidnappings, the blackouts, the ransacked buildings and bombed-out phone system. To Hindo these are minor obstacles compared with what he saw growing up in Baghdad under Saddam Hussein. His mother, Nidhal, the owner of a document-translation service, was regularly harassed and shaken down by the ''economic security'' police. His father, Wathiq, who tried importing liquor and cigarettes, was muscled out of business by Uday Hussein and nearly executed for being ''an economic saboteur.'' When Hindo finished high school in 1992, he left his family in Baghdad for the University of Illinois with no intention of returning. After studying computer science, he became a partner in a dot-com selling mortgage software to banks. When American troops entered Baghdad, he was 29 years old and living in a Miami condo with a swimming pool and a view of the ocean -- bourgeois bliss in South Beach.

Now Hindo is back in Baghdad, which starts to look like capitalism's promised land when he takes you around in his S.U.V. to show his projects. He is running an Internet service, supplying computers and satellite telephone service to three dozen hotels and businesses, plus he's negotiating to rebuild part of the national phone system. These are just his sideline businesses. He has got several bigger ventures going with his father. Together they're selling power generators to the United States Army, building materials to contractors and drilling equipment to the oil industry. They're overseeing 250 workers busy on the reconstruction of a dozen mansions, ministries and other buildings. On weekends, they scout the mountains and lakes of Kurdistan, where they're planning to build resort hotels.

Yes, resort hotels in Iraq. The country is not yet a tourist destination, but the Hindos figure it's just a matter of time. They'll start with low-budget weekend getaway hotels for American soldiers and Iraqis. (Wathiq's market research, which consists of interviewing cabdrivers, convinces him that a working-class Iraqi can afford to spend $100 for a once-a-year vacation.) Then they'll work up to luxury resorts for foreign tourists once there's improved security -- which, of course, is another business of theirs. They are supplying nearly 500 security guards and personal bodyguards to government ministries, foreign companies, embassies, museums and theaters.

''We can definitely solve the security problems,'' Hindo says. ''We

just need to have more police and security guards on the streets -- mainly guards, because nobody wants to create a huge armed force under the control of any one political entity. It's safer to have the work done by multiple private security companies.''

The Hindos, who use profits from existing ventures to finance new ones, are so confident in Iraq's new private sector that they've published trial issues of a journal covering business. It may be a while before their publication has a broad readership -- most foreign companies are still reluctant to invest in Iraq -- but the Hindos are not as crazy as you might think. News reports of car bombs and missile attacks give Americans the sense that Iraq is steadily descending into chaos, but these attacks don't affect most Iraqis, especially outside Baghdad and the ''Sunni triangle.'' With more police on the streets, people have been returning to Baghdad's bazaars and restaurants. Most Iraqis are still unemployed and poor, but a certain segment of the population -- those working on American-bankrolled reconstruction projects or public employees who have received American-financed salary increases -- suddenly have a lot more disposable income. The opening of the borders and slashing of tariffs has set off a run on the emblems of middle-class materialism: cars, stoves, refrigerators, televisions and satellite dishes. Pollsters have repeatedly found that most Iraqis expect better times ahead. In a national survey of nearly 400 small- and medium-size businesses conducted in August by the Iraqi American Chamber of Commerce and Industry, a majority of business owners said they expected their own companies to expand along with the national economy.

''There are so many opportunities here,'' Nader says. ''We're still dealing with a sleeping class of people. After Saddam, Iraqis aren't used to getting things done quickly. The concept of a business appointment still has no meaning here. Because the phones have been so bad, people just show up and expect you to talk to them whenever they arrive. But they'll learn. We can have a resurgence of the middle class. Iraqis have a work ethic. They're businessmen by nature.''

You hear similar optimism from the American business czar George Wolfe, director of economic policy for the occupation authority. ''Before Saddam's reign, this appears to have been a well-educated, professional, entrepreneurial economy,'' he says. ''Although a generation has been damaged by Saddam's reign, the culture is relatively entrepreneurial. That will manifest itself again as we move forward.''

It's comforting to think that entrepreneurs like Nader Hindo will succeed, because if the bourgeoisie can become free and prosperous, so should Iraq. Even Karl Marx admired capitalists' revolutionary powers. In ''The Communist Manifesto,'' he wrote that within barely a century the bourgeoisie had ''created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together.'' The rise of a burgher class to counterbalance the power of the state was the essential precursor to freedom. As Barrington Moore Jr. put it ''Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy,'' his 1966 poli-sci classic: ''No bourgeois, no democracy.''

The precise correlation between wealth and democracy was made nearly half a century ago by the political scientist Seymour Lipset, who concluded that the ''more well-to-do a nation, the greater the chance it will sustain democracy.'' This was recently confirmed by Adam Przeworski, a professor of politics at New York University. After surveying five decades of democratic experiments around the world, he and other political scientists found that democracy has a good chance of surviving if a country's per-capita annual income exceeds $3,000. Once income reaches $6,000 the odds of survival are better than 99 percent.

Iraq, unfortunately, is well below those levels, with a per-capita income of between $1,500 and $2,400. And the odds of democracy look worse still when you consider its location. While the merchant middle class has been spreading freedom in the rest of the world, the Arab sphere in the Middle East and North Africa remains the only region without a single democracy. Middle Easterners don't lack commercial instincts: they created the Ur trading center near Baghdad 6,000 years ago, and their bazaars are legendary. A thousand years ago, without the protection of international law, Middle Eastern traders operated from one end of the Mediterranean to the other. Muhammad was himself a merchant. But instead of evolving into free societies with an entrepreneurial middle class, the countries of the Middle East became despotic regimes with moribund economies exporting little besides carpets and oil (and emigrants who ran businesses abroad). In international comparative surveys, Middle Eastern countries score high in illiteracy and perceptions of corruption, low in economic growth and freedom.

Some scholars have taken to blaming Islam -- or, more precisely, a current fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. While Muhammad and the Koran were not hostile to business enterprise, this theory goes, clerics have interpreted Islamic theology to exclude foreign ideas and outlaw innovation.

Other scholars say the problem is not so much Islam as Arab culture, in particular what sociologists call ''amoral familism.'' The term was coined in the 1950's to describe the moral code in southern Italy: paramount loyalty to your own family at the expense of the rest of society. The resulting lack of trust in strangers was blamed for the economic gap between northern and southern Italy. In the prosperous north, large companies could expect loyalty from their employees and fair treatment from judges and other public officials, but in the south family loyalties led to nepotism, corruption and an economy dominated by old-fashioned family businesses instead of by modern corporations -- the Mafia instead of Fiat.

Clan loyalties are even more intense in Iraq than in Sicily, since nearly half of Iraqis are married to a first or a second cousin, and each of these tightly knit families belongs to a tribe with further demands for loyalty. The success stories in Iraqi business are family companies, like the ones run by the Hindos. Putting your family and tribe first doesn't make it impossible to do deals. Capitalism, after all, is built on the premise that selfish strangers can cooperate for mutual advantage. But tribal allegiances leave everyone insecure, since there is always a chance that another clan with more political power will demand a cut of the profits or simply take over the business for its own members.

''In the Middle East, the family is a fortress against the rest of the society and a massive obstacle to democratic politics and economic efficiency,'' says Lawrence E. Harrison of the Fletcher School at Tufts University and co-editor of an anthology, ''Culture Matters: How Values Shape Human Progress.'' In Harrison's view, the plans to quickly transform postwar Iraq into another Germany or Japan are unrealistic. ''Iraq is much more like Bolivia or Venezuela or Haiti in 1961 than Germany or Japan in 1945,'' says Harrison, a veteran of the frustrating efforts of the United States government to export democracy to Latin America in the 60's. ''Germany and Japan were modern, cohesive societies with literate men and women and cultures that valued innovation and entrepreneurship. Relative to today's Iraq, a cup of tea.''

raq's oil reserves might seem to be its economic salvation, creating the kind of per-capita wealth necessary to support democracy. But oil has a perverse effect on politics and economic development. Easy money corrupts. As oil royalties flow to the capital, politicians use the money to consolidate power. They build armies and secret police forces and dispense favors. Courtiers displace the bourgeoisie. You can see the effect of this ''resource curse,'' as researchers call it, in studies correlating mineral wealth with authoritarianism, corruption and economic stagnation. If its oil money is allowed to flow directly into the hands of a new ruling elite, Iraq might well become another Nigeria or Saudi Arabia.

Yet in spite of all these obstacles, a few bourgeois Iraqis have somehow survived. The Hindos' business sense may have something to do with their training in America -- Nader's father got an M.B.A. at Loyola University in Chicago -- and their being part of the tiny Christian minority in Iraq. (''The Christians are called the Jews of Iraq because we're the merchant and professional class,'' Nader says.) But they see plenty of entrepreneurial zeal among their Muslim business partners who have never been to the West. The Hindos primarily blame politics, not culture, for Iraq's economic backwardness, and so do many experts.

''Culture matters, but culture can change if the right political institutions are in place,'' says Fareed Zakaria, whose new book, ''The Future of Freedom,'' analyzes democratic successes and failures around the world. ''Social scientists once thought Catholic and Confucian countries couldn't modernize. The key to democracy in Iraq is reducing the state's role in the economy and establishing the rule of law. If you guarantee basic freedoms and property rights and enable a bourgeoisie to create wealth, genuine democracy will follow.''

But if those rights are not guaranteed, if the new government retains control of oil and remains what Zakaria calls a ''trust-fund state,'' the bourgeoisie could become vulnerable again. It's hard to imagine any new rulers (or warlords) being as bad as Saddam Hussein, but then again, it was hard to imagine what Baathism would become in the 1970's, when oil money started flowing. That was when Wathiq Hindo returned to Iraq from business school in Chicago for a job in the oil ministry.

''Iraq was suddenly given an immense amount of wealth, and I felt that economics would solve our problems,'' Wathiq recalls. ''The regime would maintain law and order, and prosperity would prevail. But instead the regime started expanding the army. In 1982, after we went to war with Iran, I knew this was not a very good place, and I got out of the government so I could leave the country.'' Hussein's growing police state, though, wouldn't let him leave, so he stayed through the first gulf war, supporting himself by importing the few items still permitted under the international trade embargo -- food, cigarettes, liquor. One day in 1991, shortly after Iraq's defeat, the economic security police appeared at his door and took him to jail.

They offered no explanation for his arrest, but he detected a pattern when he saw more than three dozen prisoners crowded into the 20-by-20-foot cell. ''These were the Rockefellers and Heinzes of Iraq,'' he says. ''Big, big wholesale merchants.'' Wathiq could guess why they were there. The gulf war and international sanctions had devastated the economy, creating widespread shortages and driving up prices of basic goods. Saddam Hussein needed cash and wanted to make merchants the scapegoats for high prices. After three days in the cell without being told the charges against him, Wathiq told the guard he wanted to confess.

He was brought before a judge who finally revealed his crime: importing a truckload of whiskey from Jordan without paying a newly enacted tariff. Wathiq, like his cellmates accused of the same tariff evasion, had no idea the tariff even existed. ''The government hadn't announced it or tried to collect it at the border crossing,'' he says. ''But there was no point in arguing. That was how Saddam maintained control. He had so many rules you couldn't follow them all.'' To get out of jail, Wathiq agreed to pay not just the tariff but the entire value of his whiskey shipment, $60,000, plus another $180,000 as a penalty, all in cash, which a friend delivered to the jail. On Wathiq's way out, he offered to fetch more cash so his cellmates could get out, but the other merchants refused to pay up.

''A friend of mine there said I was paying way too much and the charges would never hold up in court,'' Wathiq recalls. ''I said: 'Don't be silly. It's not about these minor violations. They're after our assets. Don't mess with them.' Four days later my friend and the other merchants were sentenced to death for being economic saboteurs. Saddam had 41 of them shot. If I'd stayed in that cell, there would have been 42.''

Now that Saddam Hussein is gone, capitalists no longer fear those sorts of official reprisals, but they worry about the remnants of the regime, and not merely ones who are kidnapping executives and shooting at ''collaborators.'' A number of the old regime's bureaucrats are still in place. The American occupying forces have taken a few steps to encourage capitalism -- opening the borders, issuing a currency, starting a banking system -- but they haven't dismantled the state-run industries, labyrinthine ministries and other legacies of Baathism. Even in the most capitalist-friendly part of Iraq, the Kurdish region that enjoyed autonomy from Baghdad for more than a decade, the economy is still dominated by two politically powerful clans, the Talabanis and Barzanis, and legions of bureaucrats.

''We still have a bad habit of government encroaching on business,'' says Barham Salih, the prime minister of one Kurdish region. ''It's very hard to change the culture after decades of authoritarian rule.'' Simply selling off the state-owned enterprises is politically risky, because it could provoke a popular backlash and lead to new kinds of crony capitalism favoring either rich Iraqi families with ties to the old regime or large American companies with ties to the Bush administration.

''If you were to privatize state-owned industries tomorrow,'' Salih says, ''the only Iraqis with the money to buy them would be the former partners of Saddam Hussein. Privatization has to be done carefully so as not to sustain the power of a corrupt elite.''

The American occupiers and Iraqi leaders have endorsed the concept of diverting future oil revenues into a special trust fund that would go directly to citizens, but the Americans haven't forced the issue, and Iraqi politicians have shown little inclination to forgo control. The idea of quickly transferring sovereignty to Iraq and scheduling elections may please the United Nations and Republican campaign strategists, but it dismays scholars who have watched other new democracies degenerate into autocracies or split along ethnic lines. Given the religious and tribal divisions in Iraq, an election campaign could easily resemble the recent one in Kenya in which tribal leaders exhorted their followers to vote with the rallying cry: ''It's our turn to eat.''

''Iraq's civil society is so weak and decimated that there's a great danger of a new state abusing its power,'' says Larry Diamond, a political scientist at the Hoover Institution and co-editor of the journal Democracy. He, Zakaria and other experts say it would be better to wait at least two or three years, or ideally as long as five, before holding national elections. Such a delay is probably impractical, but it would suit at least one bourgeois family in Baghdad.

During a rare moment off from their many enterprises, Nader and his parents sit around the conference table at their office debating when Iraq should hold national elections.

''Maybe in a couple of years,'' Nader says. ''We need Iraqi administrators to guarantee stability and contracts and property rights, but until we develop parties that are based on ideas instead of religion or ethnicity, we should hold off on elections.''

''Five years,'' his father says. ''That's enough time for a new generation to go through college.''

''Never,'' Nader's mother says, and it's hard at first to tell if she's kidding.

''Well, someday,'' Nidhal says, ''but I can't imagine when. People here have been through so much turmoil they're just not ready to vote.''

What Iraq needs most, Wathiq says, is a respite from politics. ''Focus on economics,'' he says. ''Politics divides people because you compete for dominance. You please the Shiites, the Sunnis won't like it. You please the Kurds, the Arabs won't like it. But business unites people. If you're a Sunni and I'm a Christian, we can always make a deal. When we make money together, everybody gets a dividend. It's like a dinner with enough food for everyone.''

He and Nader would like to expound further on the topic, but this talk of a deal reminds them of a potential customer waiting to talk to them about power generators. They head out to their S.U.V. ''We'll talk more about this later,'' Nader says as they pull away, and there is a certain logic to his priorities. Talk of democracy can wait. Business comes first.

nytimes.com



To: Lane3 who wrote (20649)12/20/2003 8:34:24 PM
From: LindyBill  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793801
 
We have come a long way from when we bombed his Tent.

December 21, 2003 - New York Times
Secret Diplomacy Won Libyan Pledge on Arms
By PATRICK E. TYLER

LONDON, Dec. 20 — Libya's surprise declaration giving up its nuclear, biological and chemical weapons was the culmination of a week of intense negotiations that followed months of secret diplomacy, officials in London and Washington said Saturday.

Since an opening gambit by Libya in March, they said, there were a series of clandestine meetings in Tripoli between the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, and experts from the C.I.A., as well as visits to at least 10 sites in Libya by British and American weapons experts.

Colonel Qaddafi personally drove his own subordinates to cooperate with the C.I.A.'s review of Libya's illicit weapons programs, United States intelligence officials said.

"During meetings with Colonel Qaddafi, he was consistent throughout with his desire to proceed with the admissions and elimination of his weapons program," one intelligence official said. "He knew what he wanted to do, and he had a message to pass back to both Washington and London. Our meetings were usually late at night, but in each case he had done his homework, and was quite generous with his time."

The negotiations hit high speed in the last week. Prime Minister Tony Blair had his first ever telephone conversation with Colonel Qaddafi on Thursday, an aide said. Sir Nigel Sheinwald, Mr. Blair's national security adviser, and Condoleezza Rice, Mr. Bush's national security adviser, spoke with Libyan officials throughout the week, British and American officials said. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell was on the phone with the British foreign secretary, Jack Straw, from Mr. Powell's hospital bed at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where he was recovering from prostate surgery, a State Department official said.

The effort's roots lay in the final phase of the five years of talks over the United Nations sanctions against Libya imposed after the bombing in 1988 of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, British and American officials said. The United Nations lifted its sanctions after Libya acknowledged responsibility for the bombing and offered about $10 million in compensation for each of the 270 victims. But Libya said full payment would come only after all international sanctions were lifted.

Congress and the Bush administration, however, said sanctions would be maintained until Libya gave up its illicit weapons programs and links to terrorist organizations. That position, American and British officials said, forced Libya, economically crippled and desperate for the return of foreign oil companies, to consider the new concessions.

A State Department official said Libya felt an urgency to act because of the American stances on Iran and North Korea and the war in Iraq. An intelligence official said Colonel Qaddafi was also concerned about the threat to his government from militant elements in the country.

British and American officials said Friday that the initial approach was made by Libya in March, just before the war. A spokesman for Mr. Blair said Saturday that Libya's chief of intelligence, Musa Kussa, contacted the British government.

Mr. Kussa has spent several years seeking diplomatic pathways to break the United States economic embargo. He and other Libyan officials carried on secret discussions with British and American intelligence that at times have involved the former South African president Nelson Mandela; Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador to the United States; and other Arab diplomats. The negotiations hinged on how strong a commitment to breaking with Libya's past Colonel Qaddafi was willing to make in a public statement, given the criticism it would probably arouse in parts of the Arab world, officials in London said.

A strong declaration was crucial, said a British official who briefed reporters here said Saturday, after discoveries by teams of American and British experts who spent three weeks inspecting dozens of Libyan laboratories and military factories in October and early December. They found that Libyan scientists were "developing a nuclear fuel cycle intended to support nuclear weapons development," a British official said. "Libya had not acquired a nuclear weapons capability, though it was close to developing one."

For the teams of C.I.A. experts, the ability to walk through the chemical and nuclear weapons facilities was a stunning experience.

"It wasn't the individual things we were shown that we were blown away by," said one official involved in the review, but "the extent to which we were given access." The C.I.A. teams visited dozens of sites, including the 10 involved in the nuclear program, and interviewed Libyan scientists.

"One of our most senior analysts said this was the most extraordinary disclosure in his 30 years of doing this," one official said.

Though the country's uranium-enrichment capabilities were further along that expected, the intelligence officials said that much of what the C.I.A. saw confirmed its analysts' projections, which they hailed as a vindication of the agency's ability to monitor weapons programs around the world. That ability has been called into question by the failure of the American hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Intelligence officials said that after the October visit, the Libyans became convinced that much was known about the weapons programs. As a result, they said, the December visit was even more productive because the Libyans were more open.

Libya revealed chemical weapon stockpiles, the existence of precursor materials used to develop other nerve agents, and a fledgling nuclear weapons program, complete with centrifuges to enrich uranium for weapons fuel. The discoveries raised the question of what nations had supplied components like centrifuges, which intelligence officials said have not been assembled in the "cascade" necessary to begin weapons-grade fuel production. The officials said Libya has obtained long-range Scud C-type missiles, with a range of 500 miles, from North Korea.

The experts found tens of tons of mustard gas, a chemical weapon first used in World War I, that had been produced about a decade ago, American officials said. The gas was accompanied by hundreds of aerial bombs that could be used to deliver it.

Libyan Meets Nuclear Regulator

VIENNA, Dec. 20 (Reuters) — The director of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, met a senior Libyan official on Saturday in Vienna to discuss the elimination of Tripoli's unconventional weapons program. "Dr. ElBaradei met with Libya's secretary of the National Board of Scientific Research to discuss the Libyan government's desire to eliminate its weapons of mass destruction program," said an agency spokesman.
nytimes.com



To: Lane3 who wrote (20649)12/20/2003 9:14:23 PM
From: michael97123  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793801
 
Karen,
If the govt cant make its case beyond a reasonable doubt, he does in fact walk. Some of the evidence against him cannot be made public perhaps. Some of those who would testify perhaps cant. I dont know if that is the case but it may be and i think it may lie at the heart of the govts holding him in the way that they are. Mike