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Politics : Support the French! Viva Democracy! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dale Baker who wrote (4661)	1/15/2004 5:46:51 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 7832

I know my inner Bubba. You assumed I didn't, which I think might be your problem. I am related to Bubbas. I go to family reunions with them, and when I write about them it's like being in their skin. Understanding them doesn't make me like where they are coming from any better, though, even though I have compassion and affection for them as people. My Aunt B thinks no teacher should be allowed to teach , unless they are Christian. My Uncle J referred to blacks as "N's" up until his death, and claimed they were all shiftless and lazy. My whole family disowned one member of the family because she got pregnant and refused to marry the father, and decided to drop out of the family church. They didn't speak to her, or see her baby, for 6 years. When she rejoined the church they condescended to see her again- but she regularly has to eat shit about her past decisions. Yes, they look down on art house movies, they look down on books too- unless the book is the bible. If they were able to do so they would severely limit my life (which I keep secret from them, and thank God they live back East so I can do that), and they would limit everyone else's life too- because they KNOW what is right- and they are perfectly happy to legislate like that. I am a tolerant person, but I do not have to LIKE people whom tolerate, and I do NOT. My family is intolerant in the extreme. People like them may have helped build this country, but it was tolerant free thinkers like our founding fathers that kept Bubba from making this place a hell hole.

To: Dale Baker who wrote (4661)	1/15/2004 10:00:22 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 7832

I thought about this a lot at the health club tonight, and this is what I came up with- while I would never tell my relatives what jobs they should hold, or withhold benefits of government from them because of their beliefs, or deny them access to books or movies, they would do this to me, and anyone like me, or anyone different from them, if they could. The tolerance that I think is preeminently important in a multicultural society, means nothing, zip, zero, to them. While I would never harm them, or limit them in any way because of their beliefs (a gesture that would not, as I said earlier, be reciprocated) I cannot like people, and choose to hang out with them for pleasure, when they are that intolerant. Tolerance to me means leaving people alone when they are doing things, or believing things, you really find repugnant. Tolerance is meaningless if you are tolerating what you agree with- that's not tolerance. The final issue for me, and the deep issue, bigger than the Rambo joke, is the intolerance in certain layers of society for anything "elitist", or liberal, or even simply intelligent, that doesn't meet with the standards of the Bubba class. I wouldn't deny Bubba Rambo, but I don't have to enjoy it, and I don't have to hang out with people who think that art movies are the devil's playground. I'm not sure how you reconcile your belief that people should travel and broaden their minds, with your defense of Bubba's mindset. My Bubbas didnt travel. They've spent their entire lives in KY. I agree with you that they must be understood, but one need not find them or their lives exemplary. Being American is not enough. Klansmen are American through thick and thin, but I can't say I admire them either- although I do understand them. Understanding does not make things wonderful. It merely makes them understood- like Saddam, or Osama. Many people on SI confuse understanding with approval- you seemed to have done this about this issue. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but the conflation of understanding and approval has bothered me for a long time on SI. You cannot assume that someone doesn't understand something simply because they reach a different conclusion- yet it is done all the time on SI. I actually read it today, on another thread- the old "When you really understand this, you'll think like I do..." Well, no- that's not going to be the case. We all are wired differently, and we process different sets of experiences, and we come to totally different conclusions on the same evidence - which is never objective, but which is sometimes more objective than not. I realized just how liquid the sands under reality were on SI when I argued with a guy about the nature of the universe. He had this idea that not believing in God left you with a gaping nihilistic screaming dark void- and nothing could be further from my conception of the universe, which is, of course, very loose- and leaves a lot of room for doubt. We had looked at the same issue, and he had come to a conclusion about as far from mine as you can get. At that point I realized just how weird people really are (all people). Of course I enjoyed thinking about this a lot- and I don't mind that people are coming to different conclusions than I am (although I'm not going to talk to all of them- because I don't see the point). I don't even mind if you want to continue to believe I don't understand Bubba- but I won't be able to agree with you. Nor will I ever think the Bubba mindset is a particularly healthy thing. I prefer a milder mindset- whether it is held by liberals or conservatives- a mindset that embraces doubt. That to me is the key to the person who is worth knowing, and allowing in to one's life- is the person capable of tolerating doubt, or are they an absolutist? I can't hang with absolutists. It's too unpleasant- left or right. Hope you don't mind the ramble - but I thought about your post, and I assume that's ok with you, since why would you post to me, if you didn't want me to think about it :-)