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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Amy J who wrote (181503)1/24/2004 10:21:00 PM
From: combjelly  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1574261
 
"Our top universities are competitive (which is what I've been saying all along.) Not our lower school systems."

Not only just our top universities, you have to get fairly low on the university rating before a lot of the non-American universities start to show up. Oh there are some, like Oxford and Cambridge, but American universities as a whole do quite well. Which is one reason I don't get all that worked up about how badly the lower schools do, it seems like those that go beyond the lower schools do ok.

Don't get me wrong, I think that public schools in particular can do a much better job. The kids are capable of it, and some go into shock when they first go beyond high school, colleges and universities don't handhold like the lower schools do. A factor is money, colleges and universities cost a lot more per student than lower schools do. But money isn't everything. My youngest goes to an excellent private school that is very cheap, a little under $5k a year. It's very small, about 120 students for K-12, and the teachers get peanuts, about $18k a year. But it has a very rigorous curriculum and the students learn a lot. It's a bit too much on classical style education, I'd like to see more math and science and less Greek, Latin, French and Spanish (all the students learn all of them by grade 12). Still, they all go to at least Calculus by graduation. The students consistently rank higher than much better funded schools and almost all of them go to college.

So they don't have the latest books, the computers are all donated and sometimes the paint and carpet is a little worn. But the teachers expect the kids to perform, and darn it, they do. Even the kids with Down's Syndrome perform better than many credit them as being able to do. They also expect them to behave, and amazingly enough, they do. Most public schools that I know of fail because they don't expect the students to achieve, and oddly enough, most don't. But they can. And many of those who go beyond the lower schools do.



To: Amy J who wrote (181503)1/25/2004 7:06:48 PM
From: hmaly  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1574261
 
Amy Re... It's a much better option to be bussed for an extra hour to a better school.

RE: "Eliminate bussing"
Disagree with that.


I have no idea why you think bussing on average, get you to a better school. Sure some kids in the poor side of town go to a nicer looking school. However, that is countered by the kid being bussed back into the poorer school. What about him? Secondly, it is much faster, and cheaper to just wire the money, into the poorer districts, through a federal aid program, or property income tax redistribution. Thirdly, the kids hate the long ride on the bus, and really miss their friends when they get there. You can't take a minority out of his environment, put him in a strange environment, with strangers, and expect him to enjoy himself, no matter how pretty the school looks. Then when these minority students form a gang, to protect themselves, against the crowd, you sit there and wonder what happened. I think a lot of the violence increase comes from the increase of gangs in school.

RE: " get rid of all quotas"

Disagree with that. Without proper representation, industries can lose their customer mindshare overnight.


School is a place of learning, not a business.

Let the parents sue the schools for not providing a safe environment for their kids. I mean, lock downs?

Just how do you propose to do that; have each teacher bring an Uzi into class. It is the police forces job, to ensure a safe environment, not the teachers. Secondly, most of the students at a high school are at a age where they rebel against authority. The lock downs are the exact opposite of what they want, and are a primary reason the kids hate going to school. What is the difference between going to school, and going to jail. And it is the kids, who hate school, or their environment, who are doing the shooting. They don't have lock downs, hall monitors or any other type of security in college, yet there haven't been any shootings at any major college. Why not. Do you think the kids are too dumb to make a bomb or fire a gun in college. It goes back to my premise. Open up the school, put the students on the honor system, have student courts etc.; but quit trying to control the students like a bunch of robots. If a student refuses, to behave himself in class, get rid of him. If a student brings in a gun or knife, get rid of him, and let his parents find him another place, like the Marines maybe. There he can play with a gun to his hearts content. We parents need to let the school do its primary job, which is teaching our kids; not baby sitting them; and that is all the schools should be responsible for.

That's dangerous. Too many people could be incorrectly rerouted to vocational training.

And I say it is too dangerous not to let the students have a choice. Quit treating them like babies. Demand they take the responsibility to chose what they want to do with their lives, and just maybe they will surprise you, with how adult they are. If they change their mind, on their career choice, and decide they want to go to college, what have they lost? All they have to do is take some remedial classes.

My definition of lower school is grade school and high school, not college. Our top universities are competitive (which is what I've been saying all along.) Not our lower school systems.

Both systems use basically the same teaching styles, except colleges use TA's for the interaction between the student and teacher; and not many TA's have a lot of formal teaching education. And my point is that it isn't the teachers who make the primary difference. It is how you treat the students, and how motivated they are. Quit treating them like babies, let them take responsibility for their own lives earlier than college; and maybe they will respond just as our college students have.

RE: " Certainly the best foreign students could chose the best college in any country. Scholarship or no scholarship, wouldn't they chose a college which could best prepare them."

No, because teh smartest person from India or China may not be able to afford our school. So, scholarships play a role here in attracting the best students.


You are missing my point. The smartest students in China, India etc, likely get tens, if not hundreds of scholarships from colleges all around the world. What sets US colleges apart from foreign colleges? It is US teachers, and the style of colleges here, which bring out the best in their students, not the worst. Therefore, if the system our teachers are taught to use when teaching is world class in college; why isn't it working in high school? I say it is the system, not the teachers. That is why the high school system should be junked, and changed to a college type system. Then maybe our high school students will be world class also.

This is not the foreign students motivation at all. Their parents send them over here for survival reasons. They are here for the best schools and work like hell - it's more of a survival issue and a fierce level of global competition.

And I say the foreign students are looking for that creativity edge our students have. It costs a lot of money to get here pay tuition etc. All foreign students need assistance, such a a full ride scholarship etc; plus assistance from their parents, or state grants. When I was in college, I knew several students from Taiwan, who were here on scholarship. It sounded like Taiwan picked up whatever expenses, the scholarship didn't. While they weren't rich, the stipend was good enough, so they didn't need to work themselves through college. Of course, when they graduated, they were expected to go back to Taiwan, and work there. The point is that those students could have picked the best college in any country. Why here? Because we generally have the best teachers, and our students have the best motivation, and therefore creativity. Taiwan, and the students themselves, want that same motivation, and creativity.

Not enough money to go around.

Think about it. How much money is wasted bussing students, which could be better spent upgrading the poor schools.

Quotas are needed in schools, so industries don't go downhill due to a lack of representation of the consumer base they represent.

You have said this several times, but I don't have a clue how bussing widens a businesses consumer base; and why that would be so important, that you want to waste mlns of dollars, and thousands of students hrs trying to acheive that goal. AFAIK bussing was ordered to acheive racial harmony; bussing has nothing to do with business. Explain please.