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Pastimes : Prophecy -- HYPE or HOPE? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: gregor who wrote (2554)	2/5/2004 11:12:53 PM
From: SOROS	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 5569

gregor, You have the same struggles as many of us have with questions that just cannot be answered. If we allow our "logic" and "intelligence" to get in the way, we simply will not be able to accept Biblical truth with the "faith" of a child, which IS necessary. That is, even though we have free choice, we still must accept God's way into Heaven, even though it may make no sense. I have always reasoned it this way: If I was created by a higher being, then that higher being could obviously destroy me at any time. The higher being did NOT have to create me in the first place, so NO MATTER what the higher being requests of me, I will do it. Sure, I could not do it, but since the higher being already made it clear that that choice would eventually result in eternal hell, why would I choose to not obey. Very tricky here to HAVE the choice, but there is really only ONE good choice. I simplify for illustration, since God did actually love His creation so much that he chose to make the good choice one that involved Him becoming human and suffering horribly. But, the reality remains the same, and until someone can absolutely prove to me there is an alternative to acquiring eternal life, I'll go with the instructions of the creator, no matter how ludicrous or hard to understand or confusing they are. Why would anyone let their "intellect" or "logic" make them give up an eternal destiny? As Job said, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." I remain, SOROS

To: gregor who wrote (2554)	2/9/2004 7:01:23 AM
From: alan w	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 5569

Sorry for the delay gregor, I've been really busy. Then God gives us all a free moral will to do as we wish and to accept or reject Him. A very big contradiction. Right. It would seem. That's what mainstream christianity has taught for years, but I find biblical support that it is God who is in control. God's will, not ours, be done. If you read the account of Moses and Pharaoh you will see that at first it was God that hardened the heart of Pharoah. Then later on you will see a change in that the bible states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God did not have to. Now gregor, I know you don't think the bible is contradictory. God explains to Moses what will happen in the verses below. Later, when it's happening, the bible simply tells what is happening. Pharoah did harden his heart (Ex 8:17) because God ordered it (Ex 7:3) Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee; and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. 3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Paul gets into the discussion of Pharaoh being predestined to be lost. Are you saying that Paul's text is not inspired? John 1:12&13 says that believers are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. The problem with your argument gregor is you give carnal man too much credit. All things being equal, man will never choose God of his own "free will". Free will simply means unlimited choice without outside influence. Mankind must be coerced by the holy spirit. And since the "chief of sinners" Saul could not reject Christ, ordinary sinners will also accept Him. But each in his own order. (See 1 Corinthians 15:22&23). Thanks for the reply gregor. Have a great week. alan w