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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (542990)	2/19/2004 11:16:44 PM
From: BEEF JERKEY	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

I lived in Holland for a number of months many years ago in a small town about 20 minutes outside of Amsterdam. Northern Europe is very similar. Liberal yes, but a more civilized place you could never hope to find. A really great place to live. You seem to fear what you know nothing about.

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (542990)	2/20/2004 12:29:17 AM
From: Kevin Rose	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769667

As usual, the 'conservative case' is an argument without scientific merit. Pick a couple of data points, and build an argument around it. Ignore the reality. "Science" in the neocon world. Nonmarital birth rates in Scandinavia have been rising for decades - before the so-called 'gay marriage' effect claimed in this 'study' (and boy, do I use that term loosely). Sweden, Denmark and Iceland were trendsetters with respect to non-marital fertility. In Sweden and Denmark, the increase in the share of non-marital births in total fertility started some five to ten years earlier than in most other EEA-countries. Iceland shows a traditionally high level of non-marital fertility. In Denmark, the increase has come to an end in the late 1980s. (See figure 2). In Sweden and Iceland however, it still continues. In Sweden (55% in 2000) and Iceland (65% in 2000), the majority of all children are now born out of wedlock. The neocon 'science' involves taking data out of context, removing any mention of other variables that could influence the data, and neglecting to mention other important data. Turns out that even with a high rate of nonmarital births, the resulting children are raised in two parent family situations: Contraceptives are relatively easy to obtain in Scandinavian countries, and much attention is paid to sex education. Except in Iceland, this has contributed to a low level of fertility among teenagers. Non- marital fertility in the Nordic countries is no rmally a conscious choice of cohabiting couples. The majority of illegitimate children live in a two-parent family (Hall, 1995). In Sweden, for example, nine out of ten children born in 1995-1997 were born within consensual unions. Remember cause and effect? Tomasson (1976) explains the demographic situation in the Nordic countries in the light of historical characteristics. The high numbers of illegitimate births in these countries would be related to the rather weak impact of Christian values with respect to marriage. Particularly in Iceland, Christianization had hardly influenced the relevant pre-Christian traditions. Another contributing factor may have been the non-existence of tax benefits for ‘traditional families’. The tax system of Sweden, for example, has been fully individualised, offering no special benefits to married couples (The Economist, 1995). There are many reasons for the nonmarital birth rate to rise. This report cites many reasons and examples; strangely, none of them are the homophobic reasoning you've spouted: In 1960, Austrian illegitimate fertility was highest of all EEA-countries, with the exception of Iceland. In 2000, the share of illegitimate births in Austria (31%) was just above the EEA-average (25%). According to Moors and Palomba (1995), Austria combines a high level of non-marital fertility with traditional behaviour regarding other demographic aspects. Kytir and Münz (1986) emphasise historical backgrounds. Traditions with respect to succession would be of crucial importance: in regions in which the so-called ‘Anerbenrecht’ was practised, only heritable children could usually afford to marry, and even they would have to wait until transfer of the property. Up to that moment, the heritable son and his future bride lived on the parents’ farm. Under these circumstances, illegitimate births were accepted and often even welcomed. Moreover, the majority of the non-heritable children in these regions never got married. Therefore, the number of unmarried mothers among this group was proportionally high. In regions in which ‘Realteilung’ (the sharing of the patrimonial estate) was in force, the opportunities to be self-supporting were more favourable. Illegitimate births were rather uncommon in this situation. Remarkably, these historical geographical patterns can still be observed, even though legal and economical circumstances have long since changed. Time to learn that 'one variable cause and effect' studies are inheritantly flawed, and usually biased. cbs.nl