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Politics : Moderate Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: zonder who wrote (7643)	3/8/2004 1:56:43 PM
From: E. T.	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 20773

Hitler believed one of his greatest accomplishments was the amount by which he had devalued the human life. I find a similarity here with the PA and its use of young suicide bombers. Extolling the virtues of suicide, as the PA does, certainly devalues the human life, imo.

To: zonder who wrote (7643)	3/8/2004 8:57:42 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 20773

To show that there are similarities, possibly. At this point, who cares. This discussion all began over posts by a person I've a history of arguing with on this and many other topics. He is, IMO, among many other things, an anti-Jewish bigot. Then you seemed to jump in and we've continued. Stop being so sensitive on the subject of Israel. Just pointing at a similarity between two situations shouldn't get you this worked up. I don't think I'm particularly sensitive to the subject of Israel. I'm not Jewish and have no really close Jewish personal connections - like marriage, or other family connections. However I do have a sympathy for Israel and the Jews as the numerical underdogs. Re. people of both sides have lost their homes when they were forced to flee into their respective regions. I think you know the number on one side was quite larger than on the other side. The number of ethnic Greek refugees exceeded the total number of ethnic Turks on the island. "Turks CURRENTLY oppressing Greeks" is either very misinformed or remarkably dishonest. I guess it depends on the meaning you give the word "oppresssion". If you exclude keeping people out of their homes, then the Turkish occupation isn't oppressing Greek Cypriots. You do raise some valid points - that the Turkish government did and may have continuing concerns re. the security of Turkish Cypriots. I recognize that possibility (I say possibility because I don't know the current state of mind of Greek Cypriots and thus can't judge whether they are a continuing source of danger to Turkish Cypriots. They might be, I don't know for certain.) All in all, I'm struck by the similarity between the Greek-Turkish conflict and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - except that the level of violence and passion isn't as high.) 3) Why would Greeks withdraw their (opposition?) to Turkey joining the EU if Turkey was oppressing them?<<< I don't know, but its irrelevant Isn't it sad that you choose to ignore the facts when they contradict with your version of the world? The answer is simple and it is very relevant - Turks are not "currently oppressing" Greeks. There may be other reasons why Greece might not object to Turkish EU membership. Greece may simply have little interest in Greek Cypriots. You also need to explain how Turkey is "currently" oppressing the Kurds. You must have forgotten to refer to it in this post. <<< No, I decided I don't need to refer to the Kurds at all Did you just forget all about how a conversation works? You asserted that "Turkey is currently oppressing the Kurds". I challenged you on that, and asked you to elaborate. You cannot very well decide you don't need to refer to it, my dear Brumar :-) You either withdraw your initial statement, and accept it is false. Or you sustain and prove its validity with explanations Now who is being overly sensitive here? Yes, I mentioned Turkish Kurds as an oppressed group when looking for another example. But I am loathe to get into another whole big issue to argue about. OTOH, I don't want to accept it is false that Turkey is currently oppressing Kurds. So..... at your request below is an excerpt (which I think speaks for itself) from a Feb/Mar 2004 Amnesty International newsletter: amnesty.org.au On a daily basis, ordinary Kurds in Turkey face a host of restrictions on their fundamental human rights. The Turkish Constitution denies them the right give their children Kurdish names, or to learn their own language at school. Kurdish youth are expected to become 'Turkish and Kemalist' (after Kemal Atatürk). Not surprisingly, therefore, only the remotest Kurdish villages are wholly Kurdish-speaking. The overwhelming majority of Kurds do not know how to speak their own language. Their language is, in fact, prohibited for use in any official setting. The Kurds must not speak Kurdish in any political or other public gathering, nor may any publications use Kurdish to express any critical ideas. Kurds were, for the first time guaranteed the right to speak Kurdish in private, or in informal settings, through the language 'reform' of 1991. But police and security personnel operate under another law introduced by the military in the wake of the 1980 coup, which totally outlaws the Kurdish language, prohibiting any language other than Turkish as a mother tongue. At public gatherings and assemblies, on placards, banners, signs, boards, posters and the like, languages other than Turkish, are forbidden unless authorisation has been obtained. Penalties for contravening this law range between six months and two years imprisonment. Those convicted might also face double jeopardy - they can be punished once because of their opinions, and a second time because of the language used to express them. Any Kurd who is arrested, or even any Kurd who is hauled in for questioning concerning any perceived 'insult' to the Turkish nation faces a grave risk of torture at the hands of police or security personnel. Under pressure from the European Union, the government recently passed laws allowing Kurdish to be studied and taught in private, fee-paying language schools only. However, according to the Al Jazeera news agency, no classes had actually started by late 2003. Aydin Unesi, the owner of one of the aspiring Kurdish-language teaching centres, accuses Ankara of deliberately blocking his school's operation. And, to add insult to injury, authorities continue to outlaw Kurdish names that include the letters Q, W and X - since these letters do not occur in Turkish! Kurds (especially male Kurds) can even incur penalties - or at least arbitrary beatings from police or security authorities - if they wear traditional Kurdish garb in urban situations. This is especially the case in central and western Turkey.