SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Moderate Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: zonder who wrote (8892)3/29/2004 12:45:13 PM
From: rrufff  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 20773
 
What's funny is that you are so quick to ascribe very liberal interpretations to Islam and yet so quick to say that Judaism is very restrictive.

BTW - your prior post was a great one, just so you don't think I am always attacking you. I thought your interpretation with respect to Islam really gave me a perspective that I often don't see here.

However, Judaism today and I'm sure one can argue similarly for almost any modern religion is more a freedom of choice. Yes, you have the Orthodox who are very dogmatic almost to the point of having more in common with an ayatollah than a modern Jew. For the most part, religion as a function of what people believe today, Judaism is very liberal and basically provides that it is evolving with the people. Without going into complexities of Orthodox v Conservative v Reform v Reconstruction v 15 people who get together in their homes every week, it's really what you want is what you get.

There are deep divisions from one end to the other and this is typical in all modern religions. I don't find a major advantage strictly in one religion over another. One can find restrictions and bases for hatred and looking down upon others. Similarly, one can find love and respect and admiration of all peoples.

The focus on Islam, on message boards and in the Western news media, seems to be more because politics has become so intertwined with Islam. Whenever there is an issue, it becomes a "fatwah" or a "jihad." This is an attempt, in my opinion, to bring a voodoo doll a "higher calling" into the weaponry, to motivate the adolescent into falling for the 72 virgins perhaps.

I'm sure there is some nutty Rabbi or some Christian fundamentalist minister somewhere who says that "it's a holy war" to fight against Saddam. The difference is that most Jews and most Christians would laugh at that one, and, if it were reported in a newspaper, most readers would laugh. (Many, many people are being turned away from Bush in the US because of these issues which are starting to make front pages.) You certainly wouldn't get many Jews to blow themselves up for a promise of some extra bagels (ok virgins) and I certainly can't imagine what an equivalent promise would be for an extreme Christian fundamentalist. <vbg>

The concept of being "chosen" is something that is common in all religions. Again - it is a voodoo doll. If there is a deity, I can't imagine that deity putting one group over another by virtue of the way they wear their clothing or the number of genuflections, etc. I would imagine this deity would judge more how one treated his fellow humankind. I can't imagine using a child as a suicide weapon ever being met with a smile in a deity's "heaven."



To: zonder who wrote (8892)3/29/2004 1:12:47 PM
From: E. T.  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 20773
 
Interesting, I forgot for a moment the dietary restrictions. Anyway, here follows the Hitler quote, I promised. It was a while ago that I had read this and I guess as I was recollecting it here at SI I had forgotten the context in which it was cited in the book and, in fact, I don't think it really is a quote of Hitler but I will quote anyway because I said I would. The book is The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler by Robert Payne, Praeger Publishers, NY, 1973. These are the concluding remarks of the book and I'm sure everyone will make different interpretations of its parallels to the Middle East.

"For all the foreseeable future he will remain to haunt us, more alive than ever, although he is dead. He hides in shadowy places and at the pinnacle of power, always urging men to commit the ultimate crime (Yassin? -- ET), the perfect atrocity, the most ferocious massacres. Into the ears of general and politicians he whispers: "Be merciless. It is very easy to kill people, and it simplifies problems. You will find it much easier now becaue I have lived. I have reduced the value of man to a fraction of what it was before. You will find, if you continue along the path I have opened for you, that the value of man will decline still further. Remember, mankind is almost valueless and its only use is to service our interests. We alone are the transmitters of civilization and the peope are nothing but cattle. Napalm is good for them."

So he whispers, and there are far too many ready listeners. The voice is seductive, and his logic, if his premises are accepted, is unimpeachable. The totalitarian way, with all that it means in terms of extermination camps and the suppression of liberties, of bombing defenseless villages or pouring flaming napalm on them, is always tempting to politicians, who find the complexities of democracy painfully inefficient. Hitler showed that it was possible to solve the problems of governmnet simply, effectively and efficiently, and he did it by destroying the government and substituting an armed police force, with himself as the Grand Policeman or Supreme Law Lord at the head.

In Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, one of the brothers relates the story "The Grand Inquisitor," set in an imaginary Spain at the time of the Inquisition. We see the Grand Inquisitor wandering through the streets of Seville and encountering Christ, who has come down to earth to bring solace to the people. The Grand Inquisitor is startled, for he believes in his own absolute authority over the people and his own power to bring them solace, and he therefore orders that Christ should be burned at the stake. The story is told on many levels, but essentially it is a study of the authoritarian temper (Arab religious authority --ET). Armed with mystery, miracle and authority, the Grand Inquisitor rules over his flock, those weak and pitiful people who are frightened by all the insoluble problems that confront them in the world, and he tells them there are no problems, they have merely to obey, and their doubts and hesitations will be resolved for he has removed from them the burden of conscience and given them a childlike happiness in place of despair. In perfect submission to the will of the Grand Inquisitor they achieve a sense of peace and communion with another. "At a sign from me," says the Grand Inquisitor to Christ, "they will heap up the hot coals around thee and burn thee."

The gentle Alyosha Karamazov, who has listened to the story told by this brother, says that it is quite impossible.

"No such fantastical creature as your Grand Inquisitor could ever exist," he says.

Ivan Karamazov disagrees; he has not the least doubt that such a creature has existed and will continue to exist.

"The Grand Inquisitor," he says "succumbs to the dread spirit of death and destruction, and therefore accepts lying and deception, and leads men consciously to death and destructions (Arafat et al -- ET) and always deceives them, so that they do not know where they are being led, and all the time these poor, blind creatures believe themselves to be happy."

So the face of Hitler merges imperceptibly into the face of the Grand Inquisitor, glowing with a kind of satanic majesty and leading men consciously to death and destruction. Alyosha Karamazov could not believe in his existence. In the present age we are only too aware of his existence, for he still walks among us."



To: zonder who wrote (8892)3/30/2004 2:50:53 AM
From: Thomas M.  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 20773
 
What I do admire the Jews for is that they have never created a clergy caste whose word is law.

What about the Pharisees?

Tom