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Strategies & Market Trends : Booms, Busts, and Recoveries -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: TobagoJack who wrote (48576)4/14/2004 11:57:49 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
<<<Who can really beat the market without proper DD???? >>

The simple answer, if asked of me, is that I do not know.
>

Brianh, Jay, that's easy. About 45% of investors can beat the market on any particular trade. It would be 50% but for brokerage, and the smarty-pants who are clever and have a very high success rate which is not the result of luck. Unfortunately, those people are indistinguishable from those who are simply inordinately lucky.

For example, based on my QUALCOMM purchases, I am a registered genius. Based on my Globalstar purchases, I am a certifiable moron. Yet, I felt I was very careful with my diligent investigation in minute detail of the two companies and know what I am doing. But add the facts of my investment outcomes together, and for all I know, the fact that I've done okay overall was purely because I was randomly one of the lucky ones in life's casino.

Leaving brokerage aside, and watching 1000 monkeys invest, using conventional monkey techniques, which is a similar process to how they type the works of Shakespeare, we can see that a few of them are registered geniuses, like me, [ignoring my Globalstar investment].

On the first trade, 500 of them are right. They feel pretty good. On the second trade, 250 of them are right again. They snigger at the losers. On the third trade, 125 of them are right again. They buy a new car and give advice to other monkeys at work. On the fourth trade, 62 of them chalk up another victory, buy all new clothes and join a fancy club. On the fifth trade, 31 are right and they are starting to calculate their profits and taxes each day. On the sixth trade, 15 are right and they are doing it on margin [conservatively of course] but they have really got this stuff figured out so buy a Lexus. On the seventh trade, 7 of them are right and they quit work, buy a new house, gear up a little more. On the eighth trade, 3 of them are right, so they start an investment newsletter, take 50% margin, order a Cessna Citation citationx.cessna.com and are hailed as investment gurus. On the ninth trade, 2 of them are right. They are considered superhuman genius heroes of capitalism. On the tenth trade, 1 of them is right and is generally considered by everyone, including themselves, to be a supernatural being.

They might get the next one, two or three trades right too. Or even seven with a following wind. But one day, the fact that they are actually a monkey with no brains will kick in. They will be reduced to what they actually are, which is a no-brainer statistical anomaly, which is included in all large numbers of monkeys/sheeple entering a zero-sum game. They will be VERY surprised that they are not in fact any better than the other monkeys who lined up in the 1000 monkey invesment challenge.

So, it's true that we don't know who will be the lucky monkey, but plenty of them can be and will be. For a while.

Of course there is a major skewing of the randomness, because in fact we are NOT monkeys and we all have a greater or lesser ability to analyze actual value by predicting the future.

Softly, softly, catchy monkey.

Perhaps the luckiest monkey is the one who loses first, keeps their house, job, normal life and doesn't waste time studying stochastic variables, in six dimensional standard deviations, of cup and handle disposed head and shoulder formations with moving MacD averages integrated with third order partial differential analysis of funds flow. The unluckiest one is perhaps the one who orders the Cessna Citation, but has to cancel the order, due to the tax man and bailiffs visiting with bankruptcy proceedings.

Though perhaps, for some, it's better to be a has-been than a never-was and to have enjoyed the thrill of the winning and feelings of genius.

Mqurice

PS:
Happy little moron, sitting in the sun.
Doesn't know he's moron!
My God, perhaps I'm one?



To: TobagoJack who wrote (48576)4/15/2004 4:20:21 AM
From: energyplay  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
There have been a number of academic and business studies of trading strategies taht have fed either past market data into the strategy or 'random' data that looks like real markets.

Trading strategies which cut losses and let profits run will make money in 'random' markets.

The stock market is not random noise, but tends to trend. The next move in the price of a stock tends to be in the same direction as the last move 51% of the time. Coin flipping would be 50%...

Larry Williams' books have information on this.

Foreign currency markets trend even more than stock markets.

Stocks also tend to trade in a range or band about 70-80% of the time, then trend the other 20%. Trend following strategies which find trends which have broken out and try to stay with the trend until it has has a significant reversal, while using stops to preserve profits, genrate net postitive results but in tests and the real world. I'll post a link to the "Turtle trade site" later which did this in the real world.

The next questions are how much more do these strategies generate over the risk free return, and can they be scalled up ? Larger sizes tend to reduce the drag from commisions but eventually will increase 'slippage' or unfavorable price movement casued by the trade itself.

Many strategies have average expectancies of 8-20 % per year. Standard deviation on these returns runs from 3 to about 15 %.

The other question is what are the worse expect drawdowns, what happenws if the mechanical trading system fails 6 or 8 or 14 times in a row ?



To: TobagoJack who wrote (48576)4/15/2004 12:28:43 PM
From: LLCF  Respond to of 74559
 
<And so why patiently wait? Why not instead loot? While the looting is good? Until it is no good?>

Well said... as that's what so many corporations do, ie. take as much as possible and leave the [externalities] mess for who ever is willing to let it be dumped on them.

DAK



To: TobagoJack who wrote (48576)4/16/2004 4:38:39 PM
From: brian h  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
Finally I got time to respond to your questions. I had been busy to prepare tax returns for myself and siblings.

""I think (a) it is great that you want to be altruistically helpful, and (b) it all depends on your definition of 'proper DD'.""

I just found your a) questions quite burdensome. (gg) I think I am going into reading mode after this writing. It just involved too much writing to explain my earlier casual comments. (gg)

You b) question. My view of "proper DD" vs. "DD" for investing is quite different.

I want to be like an company insider while doing my "proper DD". A "proper DD" means to know your investment inside out (risk level, future earning potential, the industries, etc.) even that investment goes 50% off or more due to wrong timing to buy in the first place. One still has the guts to invest more (take more risks). Holding SSTI was and is a good example.

one wants to be an investor who has as much information as the insiders' or even more than the insiders'. That is my definition of "proper DD".

Doing a "DD" is an half way of a "proper DD". The best example is investing in mutual funds. One can spend all day long finding the right mutual funds (find funds average performance history, mutual fund managers skill level, and the industries, etc.). Then one thinks one has enough "DD" and buys into those funds. One now prays and expects a decent return for his investment at the year end statements. Is it a "proper DD" at all? I bet you not.

""I tend not to believe I can know much (i.e. enough) about any company over any length of time that will do me good while waiting, even when I am an insider.""

Good points though I do not agree. That is why you never invest all your money in one basket because you do not have enough information to finish you "proper DD". Or you simply do not want to do it.

Just remember those insiders are the ones who do their "proper DD" in the first place. That is why they spent all their energies and efforts to make things happen. That is why they get the best returns when they succeed. I as a small investor want to join them as much as I can.

Please notice that a "proper DD" for a small investor does not guarantee a success but give one a pre warning ahead of a disaster. It is also true that some companies did not succeed even insiders fail to recognize it. Globalstar is a good example. Before its filing bankruptcy, one SI poster (Valueman) already found that the company management could not explain questions he had. He was an analyst for an investment firm. He then pulled his funds out of both Loral and Globalstar (not sure if he or his firm had Globalstar at the time) when LORAL was at 20 something and Globalstar at its high 20. I wish I did not ignore his post at the time. That way I would have made 4-5 times Globalstar investments instead of only breaking even after 5 years investing.

"""And so why patiently wait? Why not instead loot? While the looting is good? Until it is no good?"""

For Globalstar I expected I could easily get 10-20 times or more returns based on my "proper DD" at the time. Just not good enough "proper DD" and ignored Valueman's post (a part of proper DD). :-(

"""""For example, I know nothing about NEM that I would honor with the phrase 'DD', much less grace with 'proper DD'."""""

I bet you feel safe to keep NEM for a while longer due to it is a "gold" producer. People hold "gold" stuffs for thousand years. That is a part of "DD" process. Is it not? However do you read NEM's financial statements every quarter to make sure insiders did not loot your investments by doing "Enron" things? (a proper DD) Or NEM's gold mining facilities still produced gold? (a proper DD) Will you hold NEM shares at this moment if any of the above events occurred. Even if you know for sure "gold" is universally loved. (gg)

""In fact, in my game approach, there is no patience required, as there is no patience required while one is standing in the middle of a cash-filled bank vault or a rapidly collapsing cave. It is a game, a dangerous and fun game, but a game.""

"No patience required" means NEM was your original target holdings. You do not need to have patience for NEM's price to move up and down any longer. You did wait for all these years for the share price to rise while gaining dividend checks and doing call and put options. You can say loudly you do not need patience if you do not hold any NEM share from the very beginning. Am I correct? Could you tell me you gain more from holding NEM shares or more from dividends, call options and put options for all these years?

"""""could you tell the thread generally what are some of your other positions that have survived a proper DD process, and what is the general allocation between this cash, that equity, the other bonds and such so that the thread can get a sense of the overall context of your proper DD in relation to criticality of same.""""

I have had QCOM share since 1994-1997. Sold 3/4 at 2000 not at all time high but very happy. Bought back at 30 to 40 ranges. Held and bought SSTI all the way down from 13 to 15 to 2 and back. Just sold at 13-15 slot shares. Small position in AUO and SNDK. Real estate properties in Northern and Southern California. Plenty of cash on the side to invest further. I am going to hide further after revealing my holdings. (gg) I lied to you about all I have. (gggg)

BH