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Politics : Foreign Policy Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Hawkmoon who wrote (6813)4/21/2004 11:23:15 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 15987
 
Hawk, let's sort out what we're talking about. I've seen 5 settlement blocs named, Gush Etzion, Givat Zeev, Maale Adumim, Hebron and Ariel.

The first 3 are all suburbs of Jerusalem that have already been included inside the bounds of Jerusalem, contiguous with Israel. It's been perfectly plain that Israel does not intend to give up Jerusalem. Gilo, which is a Jewish neighborhood of Jerusalem built since 67 with 200,000 people in it, which has been annexed for twenty years or so, is not going back either.

So it's the last two that are a problem. Ariel is a problem because it's a big town in the middle of Samaria, and no PM could just give it up for nothing. I think Hebron may be a mistake, because it's not a big population center, but religious Jews are terribly attached to the place (it's the second holiest city in Judaism), and Jews lived there for thousands of years til they were driven out in 1929. So again, the PM does not have a lot of wiggle room politically. We'll see where the fence goes up, that will determine the defacto borders. Israel and the US should still send the message (which they do), that the Pals can come negotiate if they don't like it, but not with suicide bombers.

As for the question of pouring gasoline on a fire, or whatever analogy you pick, my answer remains the same: what's the difference? When the US President and the Israeli PM were accomodating, it was read as weakness and only more demands were made. This intifada did not start under Sharon; it just elected him. Al Qaeda began plotting 9/11 in 1996, the height of Oslo.

There are two dynamics at worse: encouraging terrorism by 'making them mad', and encouraging terrorism by projecting weakness. Both are clearly at work. The Arabs have been mad for a long time, chiefly at their own weakness, and anything we do will make them mad, realistically speaking. Trying to accomodate them will be read as weakness and also encourages terrorism.

The State Dept answer was 'then do nothing, change nothing' but after 9/11 Bush didn't like that option either. Now Bush feels that if this is your choice, you are better off making them plenty mad, but sending a clear message that they would be better off worrying about our anger; because we will make them pay. That is Bush's decision and he is making it for American interests, not Israeli interest, except insofar as he thinks the two are aligned.

Wouldn't the proper solution be to pull back behind the 1967 lines (adjusted for security reasons) and building that wall so that neither Israelis or Palestinians have to pay any further price??

Message: terror works great! see, you didn't have to take the deal at Taba and promise an end to the conflict, you did better through sucide bombers! and you didn't even have to make a single concession! You are free to keep up the struggle to destroy Israel! Great Job!

You really want to send that message?



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (6813)4/22/2004 12:03:46 AM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 15987
 
David Warren has been connecting some dots. I think his comments on Kerry as a political weathervane are on point:

The new smite

I don't think it's my imagination, though I have had to read a lot of tea leaves to come to this conclusion. I think, quite apart from exigencies of an election year, that the Bush administration, nay verily, President Bush himself is changing his tune; that his own reading of the apocalyptically bad situation in the Middle East is evolving with experience. He is quietly abandoning positions which have been proven naïve. He is hunkering into positions that have been proven unavoidable. The new song, which will flavour his second term if there is one, might be entitled, "No more Mr. Nice Guy."

The tea leaves I am reading are all over Iraq, and Afghanistan, but also heavily deposited in Gaza. Punches the Americans were still pulling only a few weeks ago are being freely delivered.

Now, the world is getting increasingly out of touch with America. This is evident in the common assumption that the Democrat presidential candidate, John Kerry, would offer a kinder, gentler version of American statecraft, and therefore deserves the prayers of the world's peaceniks.

Mr. Kerry, though essentially a man of the left, is a political weathercock. Read carefully what he has been saying recently about the U.S. commitment in Iraq, and national interests throughout the region. He is now trying to position himself as hawk to Mr. Bush's dove, in the "war on terrorism". He is less tactful than Mr. Bush in referring to the "Islamic threat", and has been downright rude to Saudi Arabia. In press conferences among international media, he has forgotten that he can speak French. (Mr. Kerry is also moving into positions that Mr. Bush is moving on from, but that is a different story.)

And the polling data suggest the U.S. public may be getting grittier rather than softer in their determination to deal with the hard problems presented by international terrorism and rogue states. Example: at the same time that an increasing proportion think things are not going well in Iraq, a stable or increasing proportion think the U.S. should remain there. Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's political wizard, seems to have detected that Americans are tiring, not of aggressive political language, but of anything that smacks of empty idealism. I have noticed that the administration, including even the State Department, is muting the blather about "democracy in Iraq". Since it's not going to happen, they might as well stop promising.

U.S. support for Israel is the real test, since Israel remains, to anyone with a reasonably clear comprehension of the Middle East, America's only reliable ally. On Israel, the U.S. public has now had 31 months to consider the "plight of the Palestinian people", and also their behaviour, in light of what happened on 9/11/01. Sympathy for suicide bombers is at a new low. Sympathy for Israelis who kill Hamas terrorist leaders is at a new high.

It is against this political background, that President Bush has been emboldened to "move the envelope" out of reach of the old Oslo platitudes, and openly endorse Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's efforts to build a security barrier around the West Bank (to match the one already around Gaza), and even retain possession of proximate Israeli settlements on the non-Israeli side of the old "Green Line". Why should Israel give up anything, when she will get nothing in return? Why should she act any differently from the U.S. in hunting down and killing terrorists publicly pledged to her annihilation?

The response to Mr. Bush's endorsements of Israel are serious, by "moderate Arab" diplomatic standards. King Abdullah of Jordan postponed a meeting in the White House, and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt gave an interview to Le Monde in Paris in which he said, among other unpleasant things, that, "American and Israeli interests will not be safe, not only in our region but anywhere in the world." So what else is new?

Appeasement is a two-way street. Until now, it has generally been assumed that the U.S. must do the appeasing, and that Arabs and their allies are supposed to be appeased. It is this basic formula that not only the Bush administration, but the U.S. at large has grown sick of. They get nothing for their appeasements but more grief; just as Israel received no benefits -- only more blown-up buses -- when she wasn't killing Yassin or Rantisi.

Everything else being equal, you might as well smite your mortal enemies. The trick, after all, is to make them appease you.
davidwarrenonline.com