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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (131181)	5/3/2004 4:22:44 PM
From: Elsewhere	Respond to of 281500

Actually, it was 11 million if you count everybody, Jews and non-Jews. And how were they counted? by the Germans, very exactly. The German railroads issued 11 million one-way tickets. The list of 11 million one-way tickets has to be extended by those persons who didn't even get on the train. A personal note: my mother chose my first name according to Jochen Klepper, a religious author. ourworld.compuserve.com 1931 he married a Jewish widow who had two daughters. One of the daughters managed to emigrate to England in 1939. When the rest of the family tried to leave Germany in 1942 an emigration permit to Sweden was canceled by Eichmann personally. The three Kleppers in Berlin committed suicide in December 1942. Recently I saw a Klepper TV documentary: wdr.de Klepper's diary: amazon.de

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (131181)	5/3/2004 5:02:04 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

< you seem to have forgotten about the Einsatzgruppen, the SS who were running around Poland and Russia shooting Jews and burying them in pits, that were at work from 1939 on. I'm not sure of the absolute totals by 1941 (I don't know if anyone is), but I'm sure it was over a million by then, esp. if you count starvation in the ghettoes as a cause.> Not so fast there Nadine. CB was meaning just those in the concentration camps and actually murdered, up close and personal, not by starvation. My point was that people all too often get into arm-waving, hyperbole, exaggeration and outright lies. Like the baby incubator stealing Iraqis and the missing WMDs. Things are bad enough without making things up too. There was nothing much done in 1939. It was only in 1940 that things were on a full-scale war footing with no holds barred and full-on carnage. Until then, there was some pussy-footing around, Munich peace in our time and stuff while plans were developed and the wherewithal to carry out the plans. Meanwhile, I wonder how long people will stay in the concentration camps at Guantanamo Bay, in Afghanistan and Iraq [and Kuwait and wherever else prisoners are held]. Will they get human rights? Trial? Where to next? We are certainly not at the end of history. I won't mention the NUN. Mqurice