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Politics : Don't Blame Me, I Voted For Kerry -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: ChinuSFO who wrote (20125)5/3/2004 4:31:19 PM
From: mphRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 81568
 
What I see is a hate-infested, hyprocritical piece of vermin, who likes to pretend that he is even-handed and against personal attacks.

You'll say whatever is expedient, any time, any place.

No wonder you support Kerry so blindly.

Have a nice life.
I'm not going to bother posting here or reading any
more of your nonsense.



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (20125)5/3/2004 6:21:02 PM
From: MrLuckyRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 81568
 
running down our vets

YOUR VETS???



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (20125)5/4/2004 2:12:57 AM
From: Sully-Respond to of 81568
 
"But you folks now come back and say that what Kerry
said with regrads to the atrocities in Vietnam is not
proven whereas these are."


Sorry, but Kerry lied big time & all investigations into
his allegations found nothing to support his flagrant
lies......

Kerry said this before the SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971
<font size=4>
..."war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated
incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with
the full awareness of officers at all levels of command"....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped,
cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable
telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut
off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians,
razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan,
shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and
generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in
addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and
very particular ravaging which is done by the applied
bombing power of this country.
<font size=3>
richmond.edu

Kerry-Linked Anti-War Group Can't Bury Deceit

....While many former Vietnam veterans support the
candidacy of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry,
there is no sign of the man who appeared with Kerry on a
nationally televised news program in 1971 to allege
widespread atrocities by U.S. soldiers in Vietnam.

That man, Al Hubbard, remains out of the spotlight,
perhaps because the war record he touted in directing a
prominent anti-war group that included Kerry, was
fabricated. Hubbard's deceit, which he later admitted.....

...Meet the Press host Lawrence Spivak introduced Hubbard
as a former decorated Air Force captain who had spent two
years in Vietnam and was wounded in the process.....
<font size=4>
....Hubbard's falsehoods were not confined to his military
rank, Overend told CNSNews.com . Hubbard "had no record of
any service in Vietnam ..." Overend said.....

....B. G. Burkett, author of Stolen Valor and a military
researcher, told CNSNews.com that Hubbard's type of deceit
was widespread among people associated with VVAW.

Burkett's book documents false testimonies and reveals
that many of the men who worked with VVAW and other anti-
war groups who had alleged war atrocities during the
Vietnam War had either lied about their background or had
claims that were unverifiable.

According to Burkett, the Pentagon investigated the VVAW's
Winter Soldier allegations and discovered that some of the
U.S. Marines listed by VVAW as having testified in Detroit,
"could prove that they had never been in Detroit and did
not testify at that event."

Burkett is critical of Kerry for never having addressed
the issue of whether VVAW and the anti-war movement relied
on impostors or phony servicemen. "He presented this
ragtag bunch of bums as your standard honorably discharged
Vietnam vet and I think nothing could be further from the
truth. They weren't," Burkett said.
<font size=3>
Message 19939203
<font size=4>
CITIZEN KERRY

....This particular article, explains how much of the
supposed atrocities were pure theatre.....

....all those horrific accounts of rape, torture, arson
and slaughter that the VVAW had recorded in Detroit seemed
to evaporate once the real investigation demanded by
Senator Hatfield began. As recounted in Guenter Lewy's
1978 book “America in Vietnam,” few witnesses agreed to
talk with military investigators, even after being assured
that they would not be asked about their own crimes. Many
of those who did permit interviews turned out never to
have been in combat. Some of the most gruesome claims came
from men who were imposters using the names of real
Vietnam veterans. One Marine who had been in combat
eventually told investigators that a member of the Nation
of Islam had helped prepare his statement, and admitted
that he had never witnessed any of the atrocities he had
testified to in Detroit. In the end, the Navy was unable
to verify any of the hundreds of war crimes alleged by the
Winter Soldier Investigation. Neither has anyone else
during the 33 years since, including journalists,
historians, and military and Congressional investigators.....
<font size=3>
juntoboys.blogspot.com
Message 19862018
<font size=4>
The New Soldier against Kerry

.....After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter
Soldier testimony into the Congressional Record, he asked
for an official investigation. When the Naval Investigate
Service did just that, many of the veterans refused to
cooperate (despite protections against self-
incrimination). One soldier admitted that his testimony
had been coached by members of the Nation of Islam; exact
details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped his memory.
Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore
they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who
would have used their identities. (Somehow this episode
was left out of the "Winter Soldier" chapter of [Douglas]
Brinkley's [new] book [Tour of Duty, on Kerry's Vietnam
service, reviewed in the Standard by Andrew Ferguson last
week], but the details can be found in Guenter
Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's
account in the latest National Review.)

John Kerry seems to have had a way of eluding the bad odor
that clings to his old associates. On "Meet the Press" in
1971, he appeared with VVAW member Al Hubbard, a veteran
who was exposed around this time for lying about his rank
and combat experience (he had seen no combat). While this
confirmed suspicions about the dubious identities of many
of the winter soldiers, it didn't keep Kerry from becoming
famous. The young politician was able to have his cake and
eat it, too, becoming the establishment, patriotic face of
a radical, anti-patriotic movement. Quite a trick, really.
<font size=3>
powerlineblog.com
Message 19862007



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (20125)5/4/2004 2:13:09 AM
From: Sully-Respond to of 81568
 
"The best approach is to just shut up."

<font size=4>
Kerry: The Ultimate Veteran

...."Winter Soldier" was, in fact, a set-up organized by a JFK-conspiracy theorist, the fabulist Mark Lane.

And it was quickly exposed as a lie by journalists James Reston and Neil Sheehan - themselves harsh critics of U.S. policy - who discovered that many of its supposed eyewitnesses never even served in Vietnam.

To date, John Kerry has never disavowed the Winter Soldier Investigation - or apologized for his role in propagating its notorious falsehoods.

....But it is now known that Kerry's speech was in fact carefully crafted by Adam Walinsky, a one-time Robert Kennedy aide and speechwriter - who also coached Kerry in how to deliver it for maximum emotional impact.

That is, for utmost political effect.

John Kerry, you see, had carefully planned a political career - and decided to use the war as his signature issue.....<font size=3>
thesakeofargument.com

Kerry's anti-war vigor is lauded and questioned
The Baltimore Sun
<font size=4>
....James Wasser and Bill Zaladonis, both crewmen two
years earlier under then Lieutenant Kerry on his Navy
Swift boat, a 50-foot aluminum craft that patrolled the
waters of the Mekong Delta, were bitter and angry when
they first saw television coverage of his testimony.

"Absolutely upset," said Wasser, who recalled no such
atrocities. "I felt betrayed."

Said Zaladonis, "I didn't like the idea. I certainly
didn't believe that all Vietnam veterans were baby-
killing, women rapers. Most people I know agree with me,
they didn't see it."....

....Clearly, war crimes were committed in Vietnam, said
Owens, pointing to the My Lai massacre. What upsets Owens
and some other veterans is the scale of the purported
atrocities discussed by Kerry as well as whether they were
officially condoned by top U.S. officers. He noted that
between 1965 and 1973, 201 soldiers and 77 Marines were
convicted of serious crimes against Vietnamese, although
he concedes that not all war crimes are reported.

Both Owens and Zaladonis, the Kerry Swift boat crewman,
doubt there were anywhere near as many war crimes as
portrayed by those who took part in the "Winter Soldier"
investigation, which was organized by the Vietnam Veterans
Against the War in early 1971 in Detroit and formed the
basis for Kerry's later testimony before the Senate.

After Kerry testified before the committee, Sen. Mark O.
Hatfield, an Oregon Republican, asked for an investigation
into the alleged atrocities.

In his book, "America in Vietnam," author Guenter Lewy
cited a subsequent inquiry by the Naval Investigative
Service that found that many of the veterans who spoke in
Detroit refused to be interviewed even when offered
immunity and some who reported the most grisly atrocities
were fake witnesses who had used the names of real
veterans.

Lewy, in an interview, termed the Winter Soldier
project "completely unreliable and untrustworthy" and
doubts that Vietnam War atrocities were officially
condoned or as widespread as the Detroit testimony
indicated.....
<font size=3>
dailycamera.com
Message 19862007
<font size=4>
John Kerry’s Radical Past

....it’s likely just the opening salvo in exposing the
truth about the outlandish actions of Kerry and his
comrades as part of an anti-war group known as Vietnam
Veterans Against the War (VVAW).....

....there is evidence suggesting that many of the
atrocities routinely touted by VVAW were, well, made up.

An excerpt of historian Guenter Lewy’s book According to
America posted on WinterSoldier.com discusses the results
of a government investigation that attempted to
corroborate the claims made at the VVAW event in Detroit.

The investigators couldn’t.

According to Lewy, the VVAW had told its members not to
cooperate with the government inquiry—a probe that was
initiated by Sen. Mark Hatfield of Oregon in order to
verify gruesome claims made at the VVAW-sponsored event.
The historian also notes that government inspectors found
veterans whose names had been used by people testifying in
Detroit that were not actually there.

In other words, some of the “witnesses” in Detroit were
impostors, tarnishing the names of real soldiers.....

townhall.com
Message 19862007



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (20125)5/4/2004 2:16:11 AM
From: Sully-Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 81568
 
Kerry Lying About Anti-War Past, Supporter Alleges
<font size=4>
Kerry said he hasn't spoken to former anti-war associate
Al Hubbard since the two men appeared side by side on
national television in April 1971, but according to author
Gerald Nicosia, that assertion is wrong. So is Kerry's
insistence that he did not attend a November 1971 meeting
of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), at which group
members discussed the possibility of assassinating U.S.
senators who were still supporting the war in Vietnam,
Nicosia said.

Nicosia backed up his comments regarding Kerry's presence
at the November 1971 meeting by providing CNSNews.com with
the FBI's redacted files about that meeting.....

...But Gerald Nicosia, author of the book Home to War: A
History of the Vietnam Veterans' Movement and a Kerry
supporter, disagreed with Kerry's contention that he and
Hubbard saw no more of each other after the week of April
18, 1971.

"That is bull****. No, no, [Kerry] saw [Hubbard] at
numerous meetings after that, including the one I talk
about in my book, the July meeting in St. Louis," Nicosia
told CNSNews.com .

[Kerry] saw [Hubbard] in July, and according to FBI [files
on Vietnam Veterans Against the War] and the minutes of
those meetings, [Kerry] probably saw him in November
[1971] too," Nicosia said.

Kerry and Hubbard had a heated argument at the St. Louis
meeting in July that was "witnessed by 200 veterans,"
according to Nicosia.....

....Nicosia told CNSNews.com he was uncomfortable
disputing Kerry's statements.

"I am in kind of an awkward position here. I am a Kerry
supporter and I certainly don't want to do anything that
hurts him. On the other hand, my number one allegiance is
to truth. So I am going to go with where the facts are,
and John is going to have to deal with that," Nicosia said.

"I am having some problems with the things he is saying
right now, which are not matching up with accuracy," he
added.

November 1971 meeting

Nicosia also disputed Kerry's denial that he was in
attendance when VVAW members met in Kansas City in
November 1971 to discuss the possibility of assassinating
U.S. senators still committed to the Vietnam War.

Kerry was at the meeting, Nicosia insisted, pointing to
FBI files and the minutes from the VVAW meeting, which he
has obtained. "The minutes of the meeting -- November 12th
through the 15th -- it's got John Kerry there, it's got
John Kerry resigning there on the third day," Nicosia said.

Nicosia provided CNSNews.com with a copy of the FBI's redacted files of that November 1971 VVAW meeting. The files refer to the fact that Kerry had "resigned for 'personal reasons.'"

"You are talking to a Kerry supporter, but I will tell
you, after everything that I have heard and seen, I would
conclude that he was there," he added.

Nicosia said he is not sure why Kerry is answering questions on the issue in the manner he is.

"Why didn't [former President Bill] Clinton say he [had
sex with] Monica Lewinsky? It took him until he had to be
confronted with the hard evidence before he said he did,"
Nicosia said.

"I think [Kerry] may be worried or the people around him
may be worried that his association with VVAW is a very
negative thing and they want John to back away from it,"
he added.

Nicosia concluded with advice for Kerry.

"The chickens are coming home to roost, and unfortunately
he is starting to backtrack and I personally don't think
backtracking is going to work because people are going to
go at him and find the discrepancies," Nicosia said.

As recently as two days ago, Kerry's presidential campaign
spokesman David Wade told the New York Sun that, "Kerry
was not at the Kansas City meeting." Wade added that Kerry
had resigned from the VVAW "sometime in the summer of
1971."
<font size=3>
Message 19939215

KERRY RETREATS FROM HIS DENIAL ON VIETNAM MEET
<font size=4>
Evidence Puts Him At Kansas Parley

....Senator Kerry of Massachusetts yesterday retreated
from his earlier steadfast denials that he attended a
meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which a
plan to assassinate U.S. Senators was debated.

The reversal came as new evidence, including reports from
FBI informants, emerged that contradicted Mr. Kerry’s
previous statements about the gathering, which was held in
Kansas City, Mo. in November 1971.

“John Kerry had no personal recollection of this meeting
33 years ago,” a Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade,
said in a statement e-mailed last night from Idaho, where
Mr. Kerry is on vacation.

Mr. Wade said Mr. Kerry does remember “disagreements with
elements of VVAW leadership” that led to his resignation,
but the statement did not specify what the disagreements
were.

“If there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible
sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas
City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of
his work to end the difficult and divisive war,” the
statement said.

It did not address the murder plot, though as recently as
Wednesday a top aide to Mr. Kerry said that the
Massachusetts senator and presumptive Democratic
presidential nominee was “absolutely certain” he was not
present when the assassination plan, known as the “Phoenix
Project,” was discussed.

The New York Sun first reported last week that other anti-war activists placed Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting. A total of six people have now said publicly that they remember seeing Mr. Kerry there. Participants say the plot was voted down, and several say they remember Mr. Kerry speaking and voting against it.

A historian and expert on activism against the Vietnam
War, Gerald Nicosia, provided the Sun yesterday with
minutes of the meeting.

Mr. Nicosia also read quotes from FBI surveillance documents he obtained under the Freedom of Information Act as he was preparing his 2001 book, “Home to War.”

“My evidence is incontrovertible. He was there,” Mr.
Nicosia said in an interview yesterday. “There’s no way
that five or six agents saw his ghost there,” said the
historian, who lives in Marin County, north of San
Francisco.

Mr. Nicosia said that the records show Mr. Kerry resigned
from the group on the third day of the meeting, following
discussion of the assassination plan and an argument
between Mr. Kerry and another VVAW national coordinator,
Al Hubbard.

....Mr. Nicosia said it is clear that Mr. Kerry and the
others resigned because of the extreme actions the group
was considering.

“It’s kind of unmistakable to see a pattern. All four of
them were out the door, bingo, the morning after” the
socalled Phoenix plot was discussed, the author said.

Mr. Nicosia generally declined to speculate on why Mr.
Kerry had denied being present. However, the author did
observe, “Especially if you’re running for president, you
don’t want to be associated with a plot for assassinating
people.”....

...The minutes, prepared at the group’s national office in
New York, recount the actions taken by VVAW’s “emergency
steering committee” during the four-day meeting, which ran
from November 12 to 15, 1971. The minutes indicate that at
the end of the day on Saturday, November 13, discussion
turned to “national actions and other things.” The meeting
is reported to have adjourned at 10 p.m. and resumed at 11
a.m. Sunday. The document goes on to say that the group
passed a motion to hold a “national action… in 3 to 5
different sites.”The next entry in the minutes is, “John
Kerry, Scott Moore, Mike Oliver and Skip Roberts resigned
as national coordinators.” A later entry indicates that it
was decided that the resignations and the decision on
the “national action” should be reflected in all the
group’s papers.....
daily.nysun.com
Message 19937242



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (20125)5/4/2004 2:16:19 AM
From: Sully-Respond to of 81568
 
The Cover-up is Always Worse than the Crime

KERRY’S CAMPAIGN ASKED A VETERAN TO CHANGE STORY

KANSAS MEETING AT ISSUE
Message 19949121

THERE ARE LOTS OF KERRY QUESTIONS THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND
Message 19949458

NOBODY HERE BUT US OBJECTIVE JOURNALISTS:

Hugh Hewitt picks up on 1971 Kansas City
Message 19950298

Kansas City Kerry
Message 19950304

Radical Veteran Has Ties To Kerry

Gainesville man stood trial as 1970s anti-war activist.
Message 19957142

Kerry's Other War Record

His antiwar activities deserve more scrutiny from the press.

The Wall Street Journal
Message 19961547

The Un-Kerry

Meet John O’Neill, the Vietnam vet who once debated John Kerry on The Dick Cavett Show.
Message 20050030

Kerry Role in Antiwar Veterans Is Delicate Issue in His Campaign

New York Times
Message 20058626

Phoenix Project Finally Makes the NY Times
Message 20060203

Kerry agonistes

Rocky Mountain News
Message 20065808

1971 VIDEO: KERRY ADMITS THROWING OWN MEDALS; CONTRADICTS CURRENT CLAIMS
Message 20066017

In a videotape from 1971, obtained exclusively by ABCNEWS, Vietnam veteran John Kerry said he gave back his medals in order to "wake the country."

ABCNEWS.com
Message 20066039

As a charter member of the "Lying and Crooked" "Republican Attack Machine," I have to respond to John Kerry's contention that we brought up his medal-throwing lies.
Message 20066100

John Kerry can’t even commit to a medal story.
Message 20069043

Kerry: Up in Smoke?

Best of the Web Today
Message 20069658

How Kerry Lost Vietnam

Best of the Web Today
Message 20073837

Kerry’s medal story is a mess.
Message 20074092

On an April night in Washington 33 years ago, a tall,
slender man in navy combat fatigues tapped me on the
shoulder
Message 20081897

What went down in Kansas City?
Message 20086504