Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (131598)	5/5/2004 3:57:02 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Or how about this: it is lawful for interrogators to deprive prisoners of sleep, to blare music at them, and to engage in other tactics to harass and disorient those who need to be interrogated. These tactics are often highly effective. You get a lot of decent intelligence, and assume that your interrogators are doing there jobs, and that the detainees are demoralized and less resistant than they might be. After all, few Iraqi troops are putting up a fight. Therefore, you go about your business without looking a gift horse in the mouth. Use you ability to reason! It is fun to generate plausible scenarios. However, it is does not prove which is correct........

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (131598)	5/5/2004 4:15:46 PM
From: carranza2	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

What you posit is rank speculation. Let the chips fall where they may after the appropriate investigation has taken place. Until then, I don't have the temerity to suggest that I know exactly who is responsible and how far up the chain of command knowledge of what was taking place goes. I'm a lawyer, I know exactly how slippery facts can be and how important it is to not jump to conclusions. Let me bore you with an example that took place a couple of days ago: I represent an engineer who did structural design of some columns supporting a multi-story building. There were structural problems, sagging of floors, a disaster. He was sued on the ground that his design was flawed. The owner's attorney felt, like you, that he had a lock/cinch case against my client, and seriously suggested that my client settle for a substantial sum in order to avoid the costs and uncertainty of litigation. During pre-trial testimony of the contractor who built the columns, we learned for the first time that the top supports of the columns into which load-bearing beams were to be installed were put in backwards by the contractor, destroying the engineer's design intent. No one, unbelievably, caught this error. All of a sudden, my client is innocent, the contractor is in the soup, and the guns train on him instead of on the engineer. The principle is the same. Get as close to the objective, real facts as you can before making a judgment. I have no doubt that the investigators who are looking into this are taking such an approach. The Taguba report is redolent with care and impartiality, though it is obviously only part of the investigation. I fully believe that the same care will be taken with further investigations even if only because the world is watching carefully and we can't afford to play games. Keep an open mind, don't jump to conclusions until the facts are in, especially in complex, emotionally-charged matters. I know I must sound patronizing, but you are clearly going overboard in placing blame before you know enough facts on which to make a sound judgment.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (131598)	5/6/2004 12:36:53 AM
From: Bilow	Respond to of 281500

Hi cnyndwllr; Re: "But I'm not stupid and I know that somehow, someone has found ways to break down the natural resistance to be a traitor that most combatants and terrorists have." The "secret" report detailing the findings of the investigator was earlier posted (by c2 I think). It's worth reading in its entirety. Some comments on what I found interesting in the paper: References are to the numbered paragraphs of the article. (29.) The locals employed at the prison can't be trusted. (33.) Our guys were keeping "ghost" prisoners (i.e. off the account books) in order to hide prisoners from the Red Cross. (34. b.) One of our guards escalated a riot when he "took off his DCU top and flexed his muscles to the detainees". I wonder if this is something that only pisses off Moslems. The following units / individuals were praised: 3. (U) Throughout the investigation, we observed many individual Soldiers and some subordinate units under the 800th MP Brigade that overcame significant obstacles, persevered in extremely poor conditions, and upheld the Army Values. We discovered numerous examples of Soldiers and Sailors taking the initiative in the absence of leadership and accomplishing their assigned tasks. a. The 744th MP Battalion, commanded by LTC Dennis McGlone, efficiently operated the HVD Detention Facility at Camp Cropper and met mission requirements with little to no guidance from the 800th MP Brigade. The unit was disciplined, proficient, and appeared to understand their basic tasks. b. (U) The 530th MP Battalion, commanded by LTC Stephen J. Novotny, effectively maintained the MEK Detention Facility at Camp Ashraf. His Soldiers were proficient in their individual tasks and adapted well to this highly unique and non-doctrinal operation. c. (U) The 165th MI Battalion excelled in providing perimeter security and force protection at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). LTC Robert P. Walters, Jr., demanded standards be enforced and worked endlessly to improve discipline throughout the FOB. 4. (U) The individual Soldiers and Sailors that we observed and believe should be favorably noted include: a. (U) Master-at-Arms First Class William J. Kimbro, US Navy Dog Handler, knew his duties and refused to participate in improper interrogations despite significant pressure from the MI personnel at Abu Ghraib. b. (U) SPC Joseph M. Darby, 372nd MP Company discovered evidence of abuse and turned it over to military law enforcement. c. (U) 1LT David O. Sutton, 229th MP Company, took immediate action and stopped an abuse, then reported the incident to the chain of command. ... globalsecurity.org My take on it is that it was all pretty much due to the BG failing to enforce military discipline. The battalions under her got into trouble or not depending on whether their commanders were more or less capable. I don't see this as something that is all pervasive, at least after reading the above report. There are rumors of somewhat similar crap going on at Guantanamo, but at this point, I'm going to discount it and wait and see. It's too late for us to get back in the good graces with the 1% of the Arab population that was on our side before Al Jazeera showed pictures of what were essentially scenes from a bad S&M movie (right down to the dog collar), but I am feeling a bit better about our military. I hope it lasts. But about your quote, it appears that these incidents began around November. That was about the time that we got someone to "talk" about where Saddam was. I wonder if there was any relation. That is, I wonder if the pressure to find Saddam influenced people to cross the line, or if, in fact, Saddam was found on the basis of information obtained through these means. -- Carl P.S. I tell you one thing. My knowledge of human nature indicates that Miss England is going to get a lot of fan mail from lonely guys out there who feel that "they've been bad".