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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: epicure who wrote (132888)5/13/2004 8:24:12 PM
From: Win Smith  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
QUESTIONS FOR HANS BLIX: What Weapons? nytimes.com

[ I would have posted this here when it came up, but circumstances didn't allow it. This is a great interview, who would have imagined Blix with a deadly dry sense of humor? One particular little bit that fit my personal view during the war marketing campaign:

Do you like the phrase ''weapons of mass destruction''?

It is a very poor phrase, because it lumps together chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, which are very different. About 35 to 40 countries have chemical weapons. If you just take nuclear, you have 8 -- plus 2.


The whole thing is pretty amusing, though. ]

Interview by DEBORAH SOLOMON

Q Your new book, ''Disarming Iraq,'' recounts your futile search for weapons as the former chief United Nations weapons inspector.

Yes, President Bush and Tony Blair were convinced there was something there. They were convinced there were witches.

You yourself initially believed there were weapons! Only later did you change your mind.

Yes, I, too, believed there were weapons. I began to be skeptical when we went to sites that were given to us by U.S. intelligence and we found nothing. They said this is the best intelligence we have, and I said, if this is the best, what is the rest?

Anyway, Saddam Hussein is a kind of witch, isn't he?

No, he is Satan himself! Evil personified.

You never even met him.

He considered it far below his dignity to meet any sort of lowly creatures like international inspectors.

Can one say the same of certain leaders in democratic countries? Wasn't Vice President Cheney equally dismissive of you?

The Pentagon and Cheney have been very negative toward inspections. Cheney said inspections are useless at best.

How many times did you meet with him?

Just once. We were invited in to see Bush, and somewhat to my surprise, we were taken in to see Cheney first. We had no note takers. It was not offered to us.

And then you met with the president in the Oval Office?

It didn't look oval to me at the time, but I didn't pay much attention. It was Colin Powell, Cheney and Bush and others -- and a note taker! They had one on their side, and we had none on ours!

Couldn't you just have jotted down a few notes in a pad?

It's not the decorum when you meet a president. You have to concentrate on the conversation.

What was Bush like?

He made on me a boyish impression. He was agile, moving, moving in the chair, especially compared to Cheney.

Who, I suppose, seems more wooden.

Yes, the rumors that Cheney is alive are somewhat exaggerated. It's Mark Twain in reverse.

I assume you're referring to Twain's comment that the rumors of his death were greatly exaggerated. Did President Bush seem supportive of your belief in weapons inspection?

Yes, but I never thought that Bush would have such short patience as three and a half months. It was clearly not reasonable to break off the inspections when he did.

What do you think of John Kerry?

I welcome his attitude toward multilateral cooperation. I think he is trying to get back to the traditional U.S. attitudes.

What do you make of the presidential race?

I think maybe we foreigners should have the right to vote in your next election, since we are so dependent on you.

Do you like the phrase ''weapons of mass destruction''?

It is a very poor phrase, because it lumps together chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, which are very different. About 35 to 40 countries have chemical weapons. If you just take nuclear, you have 8 -- plus 2.

By plus 2, you mean Iran and North Korea, who may or may not have them. Have we made the world safer by removing Hussein?

No. It doesn't look that way.

I find you salty in conversation, but your book is somewhat dry.

Perhaps it could have been colorful. But my attitude is one of understatement. In Sweden, we have a strong civil service tradition.
I think we are even-tempered and patient. Diplomacy needs patience.

Isn't your wife a diplomat?

She is retired, but she was an ambassador in charge of Arctic and Antarctic issues.

Are there any nuclear weapons in Antarctica?

Not that I can see.

You never see any nuclear weapons! Perhaps they're buried under the snow. Or perhaps you are blind.

Or bland. Do you know the saying that diplomacy is the bland leading the bland?



To: epicure who wrote (132888)5/13/2004 8:35:49 PM
From: Win Smith  Respond to of 281500
 
'I Needed Evidence' nytimes.com

[ Elsewhere on the Blix front, there was this review of Blix's book, "Disarming Iraq", by Fareed Zakaria. Citing Blix in support of W's war is a bit ironic, it seems, though I'm sure Neocon in his shooting fish through the looking glass mode can argue his way around it A relevant clip:

Blix is unsparing of the United States in his concluding sections. He points out that virtually every claim made by American policy makers about Iraq's weapons programs -- aluminum tubes, yellowcake, mobile labs -- has proved to be false. The entire assessment of Iraq's weapons program, he argues, lacked any kind of ''critical thinking.'' In addition ''the contempt which both Vice President Cheney and the leadership in the U.S. Department of Defense appear to have held for international inspections deprived them, in effect, of a valuable source of information.'' Everyone recognizes the need for human intelligence in societies like Saddam Hussein's. Well, the inspectors, who met with Iraqi officials, traveled around the country and inspected sites, were human intelligence.

Review in full: ]

'I Needed Evidence'
By Fareed Zakaria

DISARMING IRAQ
By Hans Blix.
285 pp. New York: Pantheon Books. $24.

At several points in ''Disarming Iraq,'' Hans Blix admits that he too assumed Saddam Hussein's regime was concealing weapons of mass destruction. But, he explains, ''I needed evidence.'' His frustration with the Bush administration, expressed throughout this book, was that it was both supremely confident that the weapons existed and utterly uninterested in evidence. Indeed, the administration was deeply mistrustful of Blix's search for it. Washington's logic, he writes, appeared similar to that of witch hunting in the Middle Ages. ''The witches exist; you are appointed to deal with these witches; testing whether there are witches is only a dilution of the witch hunt.''

Blix was puzzled that this certainty about the weapons was combined with absolutely no real information about where they might be. He repeatedly complained to senior American officials that the intelligence was meager or simply bad. The sites they directed him to rarely yielded anything. The evidence Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin L. Powell cited publicly Blix knew to be dubious.

And yet Blix also believed that the witches existed. He suspected that the Iraqis were hiding weapons and weapons programs. He came to this conclusion on the basis of the same logic -- a lack of evidence. In 1991 the United Nations had found vast stockpiles of chemical and biological agents in the country. Iraq claimed to have destroyed them but had never presented a single piece of evidence that it had done so. If they had destroyed them, Blix wondered, why did they not ''try to convince us of this in 2002 and 2003. . . . Had there really been no written orders issued in 1991? . . . Why was the Iraqi side so late in presenting . . . lists of people who they claimed had taken part in the destruction of prohibited items in 1991? Why did they not present these people for interviews in December 2002?'' Thus in his first report to the Security Council, in January 2003, Blix declared, ''Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance -- not even today -- of the disarmament which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world.''

''Disarming Iraq'' can be read as an attempt by an honorable international civil servant to steer between two realities: on the one hand, an American administration that had made up its mind to go to war no matter what; on the other, an Iraqi regime that never cooperated enough to ease the world's suspicions. Blix writes in a straightforward, honest style, with his distinctive, low-key (dare one say Swedish?) personality coming through. He is never outraged, often ''surprised,'' ''puzzled'' or ''troubled.'' His book is a detailed history of the diplomacy surrounding what turned out to be the last United Nations inspections in Iraq. It's an important addition to the historical record, though it contains more about Unmovic than most readers will want to know. (That's United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission.)

Blix provides few interesting character sketches and says little that is surprising about the Bush administration. He speaks admiringly of Colin Powell, feels that he was always treated courteously by Condoleezza Rice and writes less charitably of Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. He recalls a meeting with Cheney at which the vice president tried to intimidate him, threatening to ''discredit inspections in favor of disarmament'' if he did not produce quick results.

More revealing are Blix's difficulties with the Iraqis. Time and again he and his colleague Mohamed ElBaradei tried to explain to the Iraqis that they needed to cooperate for the inspections to confirm what they claimed -- that they had no weapons of mass destruction. After repeated requests to talk to Saddam Hussein, which were turned down, Blix and ElBaradei met with the Iraqi vice president (a powerless Hussein stooge). At that meeting, ElBaradei sternly explained that it was ''incomprehensible'' that Iraq had not taken the steps the United Nations had demanded. There was no response.

Later, in February 2003, as the United States made clear that time was running out, several countries proposed ways of testing Iraqi cooperation. One was that Saddam Hussein give a televised speech promising full cooperation with inspections so that everyone in the country heard it from the top. Another was a timeline for inspections with clear benchmarks. Almost every country got seriously interested in these proposals. But there was no response from Iraq. It was behavior like this that led Blix and many others to assume that the Iraqis were not coming clean because they had something to hide.

Blix is unsparing of the United States in his concluding sections. He points out that virtually every claim made by American policy makers about Iraq's weapons programs -- aluminum tubes, yellowcake, mobile labs -- has proved to be false. The entire assessment of Iraq's weapons program, he argues, lacked any kind of ''critical thinking.'' In addition ''the contempt which both Vice President Cheney and the leadership in the U.S. Department of Defense appear to have held for international inspections deprived them, in effect, of a valuable source of information.'' Everyone recognizes the need for human intelligence in societies like Saddam Hussein's. Well, the inspectors, who met with Iraqi officials, traveled around the country and inspected sites, were human intelligence.

Iraq was a hard case. Not only was it one of the most closed states in the world. It had a history of pursuing weapons of mass destruction, and had used them twice, against the Kurds and the Iranians. From the mid-1970's through the early 90's, Iraq continuously, persistently and ambitiously sought nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. All Western intelligence services underestimated the extent of these efforts. International agencies, chiefly the International Atomic Energy Agency, headed by Hans Blix, actually gave Iraq a clean bill of health during these decades. As a result, everyone, including Blix, was wary of Iraq's declarations that it had destroyed its old stockpiles and wasn't building new ones.

But something changed around the early 90's inside Iraq. Perhaps the regime became dysfunctional, or the inspections worked, or the bombing and sanctions took their toll or something else. But at that point, Iraq appears to have quietly thrown in the towel. Blix speculates that the Iraqis did not reveal this to the world for several reasons: the Americans seemed dead set against them anyway; national pride; they wanted to scare their neighbors (''like someone who puts up a sign warning BEWARE OF DOG without having a dog''). Whatever it was, the United States -- and most of the world -- missed it.

But if getting Iraq right was tough, getting the diplomacy right was much easier. Reading this book one is struck by how, at the end, the United States had become uninterested in diplomacy, viewing it as an obstacle. It seems clear that with a little effort Washington could have worked through international structures and institutions to achieve its goals in Iraq. Blix and ElBaradei were proving to be tough, honest taskmasters. Every country -- yes, even France -- was coming around to the view that the inspections needed to go on for only another month or two, that benchmarks could have been established, and if the Iraqis failed these tests the Security Council would authorize war. But in a fashion that is almost reminiscent of World War I, the Pentagon's military timetables drove American diplomacy. The weather had become more important than international legitimacy.

Had Washington made more of a commitment to diplomacy, Saddam Hussein would probably still have been deposed. Blix's book provides ample evidence that the Iraqis would most likely not have met the tests required of them. But the war would have been authorized by the Security Council, had greater international support and involved much more burden sharing. Countries like India and Pakistan, with tens of thousands of troops to provide, made it clear that they needed a United Nations mandate to go into Iraq. The Europeans and Japanese (who now pay for at least as much of the reconstruction of Afghanistan as the United States does) would similarly have been more generous in Iraq than they are today.

Most important, the rebuilding of Iraq would be seen not as an American imperial effort but as an international project, much like those in Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor and even Afghanistan. America is paying a price in credibility for its mishandling of Iraq. But the real price is being paid by the Iraqi people, whose occupation has been far more lonely and troubled than it needed to be.

Fareed Zakaria is the editor of Newsweek International and the author of ''The Future of Freedom.''



To: epicure who wrote (132888)5/14/2004 9:16:29 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Yes, I know that, so what?