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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (133850)	5/22/2004 2:43:53 AM
From: boris_a	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The point is, the figure was bogus The point is: with torture, cover-up and lawless structures, all "numbers" are becoming inherently bogus. I would hope Nobody knows how many innocent people have beed deported to Guantanmo Gulag. But hope is always fine. Especially if you are an innocent there.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (133850)	5/22/2004 4:49:06 AM
From: boris_a	Respond to of 281500

there is not much in all this scandal that amounts to torture as generally understood I'd like to hear this sentence again from you after you enjoyed a Abu-Grahib treatment. How long do you think you would need to recover from a little rape and sexual humiliation by some Iraqi MPs? so I doubt it would elicit much in the way of false confessions. What kind of stuff would you falsely confess to avoid a second round? All these are pretty much "in-vitro" armchair torture-expert speculations aiming at self-discharge. BTW, there are many innocent people in prison in civilized countries because of too hard interrogations by police and the induced false confessions. This is a well known phenomenon among law experts and has still nothing to do with a lawless torture system.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (133850)	5/22/2004 10:24:42 AM
From: Lou Weed	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

<<Moreover, there is not much in all this scandal that amounts to torture as generally understood - beatings, bastinado, hung from the ceiling, electric shock, mock executions, etc, so I doubt it would elicit much in the way of false confessions.>> Nadine, have you experienced any of the above treatments? If you have then I would say your speculation might have some merit but if not (and I hope you haven't) then your comment is wholly shallow. Oh, you also forgot to include anal rape with an electric appliance, sexual humiliation and forced homosexual acts in your list of "non-torturous techniques" but I guess that doesn't amount to torture as generally understood either! Sheesh....don't you ever get pissed at this admin. for making you have to resort to such rationalizations? Sad... MON

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (133850)	5/22/2004 4:28:24 PM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Not much that is torture? Are you kidding? Have you not been paying attention? there is not much in all this scandal that amounts to torture as generally understood - beatings, bastinado, hung from the ceiling, electric shock, mock executions Every one of those things except hanging from the ceiling, (but hanging from a rope on a fork lift truck is close enough, and there's a photo of that), has been reported in Iraq, including beating of the feet and jumping on their naked feet (and hands), beating of wounds, beating to death. Add rape and child rape and sodomy and feces-play and threats to bring in and torture children and rape wives and oh so much more. I would hope a much higher percentage of the political prisoners were there for a good reason, such as being identified as Ba'athist mukhabarat officers or spec. rep. guard officers. Well, hope away, Nadine. They pick up people in sweeps. No one denies it. This man was picked up "on the open road." Iraqi In Custody Tortured To Death After the shock of the abuse photos, there's a worse new allegation against US troops. Spiegel TV has acquired written and oral documentation indicating that a 47 year old Iraqi was tortured to death in American custody. The Americans are alleged to have attempted to cover the case up. Spiegel TV Exclusive (Translated by S.B.) spiegel.de 05/15/04 -- Berlin - The case of Asad Abdul Kareem Abdul Jaleel was pure routine for the American troops. After the 47 year old family father died on the US military base Al Asad west of the town of Khan al Baghdad in US custody on January 9th 2004, an American doctor filled out a death certificate. Apparently without doing an examination, and according to the documents, without performing an autopsy, the pathologist Luis A. Santiago wrote that the man had died in his sleep. The US troops handed the body, including the death certificate, over to the International Red Cross shortly thereafter. American troops had previously arrested the respected family patriarch on an open road and taken him to the American military base Al Asad west of the town of Khan al Baghdad. Ostensibly there was suspicion that he belonged to the Iraqi resistance. The soldiers are alleged to have put enormous pressure on Asad Abdul Kareem Abdul Jaleel in the base prison. Another prisoner gave Spiegel TV a detailed description of how the 47 year old was tortured in a sadistic manner for five days. The witness says that the soldiers also took photographs of the abuse. Asad Abdul Kareem Abdul Jaleel died in US detention on January 9th of this year. However, there are grave doubts about the version that claims his death to have been from natural causes. An Iraqi forensic pathologist who took the body over from the US armed forces confirmed to Spiegel TV in Baghdad that he diagnosed definite torture marks on the body of the deceased. In addition, photos of the deceased confirm that contrary to the US documentation, an autopsy had been performed on the man. The scars on the torso indicate that Western doctors did the autopsy. Deep Dark Bruises on the Entire Body Even a layman can easily recognize the obvious effects of violence on the pictures of the body: Large, dark bruises that could come from beatings can be seen on both sides of the body. On the wrists and ankles there are bruises, which presumably date back to many days of captivity. There are bruises from beatings or other forms of violent impact on the back. Other lacerations on the upper body point to injuries which can hardly be called "natural". If the suspicious facts against the US troops turn out to be true, the US torture scandal would take a dramatic turn. If the charges hitherto were about violent abuses of prisoners and humiliating methods of interrogation, the investigation would now have to include failure to give assistance, manslaughter, or even murder. The participating soldiers and their commanding officers could be harshly punished, and the US army in Iraq would be exposed to even more hate and desire for revenge than they already are. Although there are already a number of investigations being carried out about unclarified deaths in Iraq, and also in Afghanistan, - the army insists that in none of the cases can the guilt of the soldiers be proven. According to the research of Spiegel TV, the case of the family father Jaleel in occupied Iraq is not a rarity. Employees of the Forensic Pathology Institute in Baghdad confirm that among the bodies that the International Red Cross has handed over to them on behalf of the Americans there are always victims of torture. However, the Iraqi pathologists are forbidden to do their own investigation as long as there is an American death certificate - even if the information about the cause of death is obviously false. The US Army Remains Silent About five bodies with US Armed Forces death certificates are handed over every week in Baghdad alone, according to the employees of the Institute. The established practice of the Americans is to declare bodies that come from the prison at Abu Ghuraib as victims of grenade attacks on the camp. This was the case with the bodies of 26 detainees last week, even though only some of the bodies showed injuries typical of grenade attacks, the employees said. Meanwhile in the case of the 47 year old Asad Abdul Kareem Abdul Jaleel, there appears to be an internal investigation of the US troops going on. Witnesses report that they have been questioned by US soldiers about the procedures on the American military base Al Asad. Spiegel TV has been attempting to get a statement from the responsible authorities of the army in Baghdad for several days. Up to now, however, all written as well as oral questions remain unanswered.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (133850)	5/22/2004 6:53:13 PM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Is this "torture as it's generally understood"? breakingnews.nypost.com And back to your post: Again: Every item in the list of "torture as it's generally understood" you provided is included in the tortures in which we Americans have engaged, according to the evidence. Substitute "rope" and "fork lift" for ceiling. Substitute "stun guns" for electricity. I wonder, Nadine, if you are in denial mode because of defensiveness about the torture engaged in by Israel. It occurs to me that you will certainly defend those, and so are in a position where if you don't justify and trivialize violations of the Geneva Conventions by the US, it might represent for you an exercise in cognitive dissonance.