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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (135623)	6/4/2004 4:00:07 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

I haven't really participated in the discussion between Nadine and Sarman, mostly because I usually end up believing that they're both right. If you look at the questions they raise there's plenty of blame to go around and far too little justification to make the bloody actions of the other "justified." It's kind of like a bitter fight between spouses where every allegation is met with a finger pointed back in the form of a counter allegation. We are, as a nation, strong supporters of Israel. The holocost touched us deeply and left its print on us and we've always viewed the Jews as underdogs, both because of their treatment in Europe and because of the circumstances of their creation of the state of Israel in the face of such great odds. Because of that I feel a little regret for Sarman as he usually runs into a predictable response that favors the Israeli view. One thing that does seem very clear to me is that neither the Palestinian attacks nor the Israeli actions are making things better. There are innocent people constantly dying on both sides and although the Palestinians seem more overtly brutal in deliberately targeting civilians and in publicly celebrating the resulting deaths, the Israelis are deliberately targeting those they see as enemy leaders and they don't seem to "care" if they kill innocents in the process. I think it's also true that the Israelis are deliberately penalizing the Palestinian populace in order to make them "pay a price" for the actions of the active groups that are attacking from within their ranks. I suppose the thinking is that the populace will eventually reject the terrorists in order to enjoy a better life, but so far the population seems to be reacting to the Israeli actions with more determination, more hatred and more violence. I think both sides will sometime reject the "policy" of war but the "when" is not in sight. I'd guess more blood is required so that the sickness of death will make them all too weary to continue. That's when the alternative of living in peace with those they hate will no longer seem intolerable. In the meantime any discussions that attempt to justify the targeting of civilians or an acceptance of the "necessary" killing of civilians in order to attack individual targets, seems fruitless. It's all bad and I don't believe either position will bring peace or advance the cause of either side.

To: Ilaine who wrote (135623)	6/4/2004 4:03:52 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Respond to of 281500

Sarman also declined to answer my contention that Israel was winning the war. He does not want to discuss events in a "war" framework because the preferred framework is "innocent victims of Israelis aggression". You notice this if you go to the most pro Palestinian sites. Normally, in reading war propaganda I would expect to see articles that say "we hit the enemy good over here", "enemy morale is cracking", "we've got the enemy on the run," etc. The Palestinian sites instead specialize in "the evil Zionists are attacking us again for no reason" notices, along with the glorification of "martyrs" and promises of future revenge. A curious line of propaganda, that makes one's one side at once helpless yet indomitable. BTW, all who die in the "struggle" are martyrs, and the blood of martyrs calls for revenge. That includes suicide bombers and those who die in "work accidents", as the Israelis call them.