"Frankly, I am more concerned with the actual issues rather than his motives"
You could further your causes and ideas much more effectively if you stuck to the issues. I originally came to this thread thinking ideas would be discussed. I saw quickly that the left had no interest in that. It's all personal.
Maybe on this thread and maybe since you started posting. However, my experience is that a lot of people from the left have given up trying to discuss the issues because of past abuse from the right.
Since Bush's election and esp. since 9/11, the American right has acted as if they have a divine right to rule. Criticisms by the left have been greeted with abusive responses and/or complaints of being unAmerican. My God, the very lives of the Dixie Chicks were threatened....there were CD burnings throughout the South.
Just today on another thread, someone from the right made an assertion in his post that x,y and z had happened. When another poster refuted his claims with some of the facts, his response was that that poster did not deserve to live in America. From my experience, the right does not want to be shown that they are wrong and when someone does provide legitimate evidence that they [the right] are in error, they respond with name calling. At this point, the left has begun to respond in kind. Its very disturbing.
"you all turn it around and make it into a hate Bush issue."
When someone calls him Hitler, as JF Sheperd does, or Saddam, like the poster you are referring to does, what else can you do.
Excuse me but what did the right say about Clinton after the Lewinsky affair? More than once someone from the right has claimed that Clinton raped Lewinsky...that the sex was not consensual. The GOP wanted to impeach him because he lied about having sex. While I don't think his lying was very honorable, I do not think its grounds for impeachment.
All thru the nineties, the GOP radio talkies like Limbaugh and Hannity were calling Clinton every name in the book. What does the bible say......do unto others what you would have done unto you. Well, sadly, the worm has turned!
The issue with me becomes a revulsion with what the hatred does to people like that. How else could JF compare Bush to Hitler? He can't possibly believe they are the same. He has also called me a bigot, racist, brown shirt, etc. Those aren't arguments. And they are not true.
I don't know who JF is. However, don't feel so bad........I have been told that I am unAmerican, unpatriotic, a terrorist, a friend of OBL, antiSemitic because I do not believe we should continue to subsidize Israel, a slimy liberal, and a Sadomite or Saddamite.. to name a few.
The absolute irony of all this is that prior to 2000, I thought of myself as an independent. I voted for candidates from both parties and never belonged to either party. While I am socially liberal, I am a strict fiscal conservative. However, the behavior of the conservatives since 2000 has changed my outlook. I truly feel threatened by the right and its POV. This summer, I intend to give money to the Dem. [a first] and actively campaign for Kerry......something I have not done since college. That's how uncomfortable I have become with the rhetoric of George Bush and the neocon right.
"Iraq was a big mistake that is draining the US Treasury and helping al Qa'ida with recruitment and fundraising"
Those are legitimate issues to bring up. Why doesn't the left do that more often?
I am not sure where you've been but many from the left and the center have been bringing this up for a year or more. I was absolutely against the war from the get go. I knew we were being led down the proverbial primrose path. I am extremely disappointed with how the American public and Congress rolled over and played dead. At the least, the Brits and the MPs in Parliament made it very clear to Blair that they did not want him to commit to war. Americans let Bush manipulate them into this war.
A democracy does not mean you vote for a person and then stick your head in the sand. If the elected person is behaving in a way that doesn't fit your POV, then you need to voice loudly your objection. The president serves at the bequest of the American public, not the other way around.
As for Congress, the Constitution clearly states that they are a check on the president. In reality, they too rolled over and played dead......both Dems and the GOP. They gave up their veto authority in order to please Bush. The day they gave him unlimited authority to attack Iraq and the rest of the Axis of Evil was a sad day in the history of our country.
On those issues I would argue that going after the terrorists is more effective than not doing so. We didn't do so before (not blaming anybody), and 9-11 happened. When other evils have been confronted by determined people, positive things have happened. The beauty of Bush's plan is that if freedom and democracy (or something close to it) takes hold in Iraq, a huge portion of the world's population that has had no experience with it will see the benefits.
Its a wonderful theory that looks great on paper but does not play well in reality. Personally, I think its very difficult to create a democracy and then impose it on a people. Democracy needs a very fertile soil and then lots of care. The people have to want to die for it. I don't see that in Iraq. Whenever push comes to shove, the Iraqis split or cave. There are people on the governing council that appear to be committed but I am not so sure that they are in for the long haul.
In addition, Bush's policy theory does not appear to recognize the peculiarities of the ME. When Europeans were sitting in dung playing with their peters, the empire of Islam was flourishing. Islam was responsible for many extraordinary creations/innovations......the concept of a hospital, our numbering system, the invention of books, the studies of astrology and astronomy, the curing of cataracts......the list is a long one. This all happened before 1200 AD. By then, Bagdad had become a great scientific research center.
Inspite of all their scientific prowess and the mastery of so many arts, not once have the Muslims developed a working democracy. As late as the 19th century, the Ottoman Empire had none of the trappings of democracy.
Finally, of all the ME countries, Iraq is probably the worst one to try and start up an democracy. Its boundaries are artificial, forced upon the Iraqis by the Brits in the 1920s. The Shia and Sunni makeup is the reverse of most of the ME. The Shia are the much maligned minority in most of the ME except for Iraq and Iran. The Sunnis are the majority. With the exception of Iran, Iraq will be viewed with some suspicion by the ME countries.
Secondly, the Kurds, although Sunni Muslims, have no loyalty to either the Iraqi Sunnis or Shia. In fact, they wish to break away and form a separate country with the Turkish Kurds, the Syrian Kurds, and the Iranian Kurds. They've named the country Kurdistan.......and I think they have a congress, constitution and other trappings of gov't. Already the Kurds are complaining that the Shia will have too much power in the new Iraqi gov't.
Is it impossible to establish a democray in Iraq....no, nothing is ever completely impossible but the odds are not good IMO. And frankly, I am not into nation building....particularly when it costs upwards of $300 billion. I belive there are better ways to spend our money rather than on a grand experiment that may well fail.
That will stop way more people from becoming terrorists than anything else.
Do we have less terrorists? Repeatedly experts all over the world are saying that Iraq has been a fundraising and recruiting bonanza for al Qa'ida. Terrorist attacks are very much on the upswing throughout the entire world. If Bush's excellent adventure is working, why are things getting worse?
But to get there, we had to take Saddam out. To me, it seems like the left thinks either they do not deserve freedom and democracy, or cannot handle it.
I think it will not work and it's costing a lot in terms of lives and money.......however, that's not my biggest concern. While I won't pretend to be an expert on the ME, I know a lot about the region. As far as I can tell, Bush has done the equivalent of hitting an Africanized beehive with a big stick. I don't know if you seen the Africanized bees swarm.......but its worse than any horror film I've seen.
The ME analogy is that we are causing the Muslims to rear up and unite behind less than desirable people because we appear to be the greater of two evils. Westerners have done considerable $h*t in the ME during the past 200 years. To Muslims, Bush's attack on Iraq appears to be more of the same but much more aggressive and demeaning. I don't think most Americans realize how demeaning America's attack on Iraq and Afghanistan is to the Muslims.
Both pretty despicable positions imo. Maybe there is another reason they would prefer Saddam stay in power, but I cannot see what that is. Could be a strong desire to see their hated President fail.
I don't think anyone from the left thinks Saddam should have stayed in power; however, I, like many on the left, don't think it was our position to remove him. We should have let the weapon inspectors do their job.
The right forever complains that the UN doesn't respect our sovereign rights. Whatever the UN has done to us to invoke that complaint, its much, much less than what we've done in the ME. We started a pre emptive war on false data. That's pretty offensive $h*t when you are worried about national sovereignty.
"I hated him right after the elections "
I think this colors your views. And when I see it (hatred), I will continue to bring it up, because it becomes the issue.
Maybe....if I were a child. However, I am an adult and can separate my emotions from the facts. Bush doesn't win with me any which way. Its inexplicable to me why you all don't see what I see. And I certainly don't see what you see.
We are nation of 260 million people.....if Bush is the best we can do, then we are in serious trouble. One look at his resume and he should have been told not to run. I am not sure what the GOP is up to but its very disappointing. In terms of quality, there is no there there.
Terrorists hatred of us and our ways is why they kill us. Lose the hatred and you can see the world and its benefits more clearly.
I suggest you look into the history of western involvement in the ME. Once you see what the West has done over the past two hundred years, you will understand better why there is so much hatred directed at the West. Naturally, there are two sides and the Arabs have done their $h*t as well but its been the West who has been exploitive and heavy handed. And the Bush administration, clearly out of ignorance, has played right into all that hatred. Its very sad......it will take decades, if not centuries, to reverse the damage they [the Bushies] have done.
"why don't you guys (hate Bush)"
Because he is an honest and decent man with a positive vision of the future that will allow more people on earth to enjoy their time here.
Sorry don't see it....nothing he's done convinces me of that.
Prove to me that he is Hitler or Saddam and I will hate him too.
Why do I have to prove to you that he is Hitler? He's incompetent......that should be enough.
I hate those two guys. But I have not seen anybody EVEN COME CLOSE to convincing me that George Bush is like either of those people.
I don't know......I hope he isn't but again, I don't think that should be the deciding factor.
I certainly didn't hate Clinton when he came to office. Don't really even hate him now. But do think he was a shitty role model for Americans and citizens of the world.
I don't much care to discuss Clinton......he is no longer president and does not effect our future all that much.
"when he comes on the tube, I change the channel"
Another common trait of the left. I never switched Clinton off because I wanted to know what he had to say. Maybe you know that you hate him, and you don't want to be wrong. This is why it looks to me like many on the left want Iraq to fail. They want to be able to say Bush is an asshole SO BADLY that the fate of these 25,000,000 people is inconsequential.
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I am afraid you don't understand how offensive he is to many of us. And I don't say that lightly. This is a major problem.......there is a serious schism in this country that could very well lead to a second civil war.
To understand how far apart we are.......I see Bush as a slimy, snake oil salesman who is not very bright and who talks to God a little too much for my comfort.
He is incredibly divisive to this country......for that reason alone, the GOP should remove him from the ticket this fall. I hope this country gets thru this mess.....but with each passing day, I grow less confident.
"Its a drain on our Treasury and people are getting killed or maimed"
That's a very simple statement that does not factor in the tough reality that if thousands die to save millions, it may be worth it.
Sorry, I don't believe millions were in jeopardy. No one from the right has made a creditable argument that stands up under close scrutiny.
That is why being a leader is tough. It's REALLY, REALY EASY to say he does it for his oil buddies. But it is also incorrect and dishonest. When I see someone say it, my first thought is that they are just another hater.
Isn't that the easy way out? Calling someone a Bush hater suggests they are irrational and overly emotional. By doing that, the right need not go any further and explore the complaints emanating from the so called Bush hater. IMO the right needs to start looking at this mess with a little less bias and a lot more objectivity.
We are in trouble if for no other reason than there is a serious split in this country and the population is very divided. IMO I can emphasize this point enough.
But I must say in all and sincerest honesty, I really think that Bush has you all fooled. |
