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To: carranza2 who wrote (51420)	7/7/2004 4:59:03 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

C2, the amount of melting left to do after the last glaciation is tiny, so I don't think fresh water is going to stop the Gulf Stream. All the climatic investigations seem to be angled at proving that global warming is a big problem. It's tendentious research, not scientific research. Real scientists look for mechanisms and causal relationships, not any old story to support their wonky hypothesis. I've pointed out a few things to show that in fact CO2 in the air is a good thing. You don't see the scientists explaining why it's a good thing that all that carbon has been stripped from the ecosphere and buried in vast cemeteries with petatrillions of lives ending up there, never to be born again. The ecosphere is a pathetic remnant of its once great splendour. There is barely enough life left in the planet to keep the ice at bay. One more lurch into an ice era and we might never come out of it. We are due for a lurch back into a glaciation era. Deserts have increased, which increases reflection of heat back into space. When covered in plants, the dark green leaves absorb lots of heat and Earth stays warm. Hawkmoon gave this link columbia.edu which estimates one third of the Gulf Stream as being due to salinity and temperature differences and two thirds due to wind drag. Here's why I'm not worried about the Gulf Stream conking out: Message 19862714 [Briefly, the melting left to do is tiny compared with the melting after the last glaciation]. According to that article Hawkmoon provided, it's during glaciations that the Gulf Stream almost stops. Which isn't surprising, since the fresh water runoff from the frozen north is near zero and it's apparently salinity differences due to fresh water flow which drive it. I suppose there are also temperature differences causing density differences. Maybe winds are slower too during glaciations as temperature differences are lower between the poles and the equator. <There is now some objective evidence that the pump that causes the conveyor effect is getting reduced by less salty, less dense water. If true and if the effect persists, > If that was true, I can see it could be a problem. But I don't see how it can be true when the big runoff was at the end of the ice age when the big melt was going on [about 10,000 years ago]. Now there is only Greenland and the North Pole left to melt. That's a tiny fraction of what was frozen all across Russia, Alaska, Canada and the oceans and has since melted. If fresh water runoff was going to stop the Gulf Stream flow, it would have already done it long ago. <At present the influx of fresher water has been distributed throughout the water column. > With the density of water being peculiar between -1 and 4 degrees Celsius [expanding in frozen state and being most dense at 4 degrees and less dense at 0 and higher temperatures] and salt water being more dense than fresh water, unless very warm in which case it would be less dense than 4 degree Celsius fresh water, [I should check numbers to be sure], I can see that there would be mixing throughout the column. Maybe fresh water can't 'pond' on the surface since it doesn't seem to have done so. Mqurice