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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Srexley who wrote (589383)	7/10/2004 2:38:34 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

My Srex. This is just fabulous. And it is exactly bang on right. The issue with me is that God is the Top Might. He can tweak reality as He wishes. I can't do it. Osama can't do it. Adolph couldn't do it. Neither can the Pope or anyone else. Only God can do it and I am no one to claim He ought not make the choices He makes. No one is in that position at all.

To: Srexley who wrote (589383)	7/10/2004 4:52:59 PM
From: Steve Dietrich	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

<<Did God order their extermination, or Moses? Not in your opinion, but per the biblical sense.>> Again it's in the passage: The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. And 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [1] 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. So sometimes God is commanding Moses and sometimes Moses is commanding his troops according to his understanding of God's will. << is that you seem to believe that if Christians believe it was ok per God's will in biblical times, you think they are ok with these types of events in modern time>> How can you say that when i've specifically told you my views on this? I've said i have trouble with a moral code that can't say genocide is always wrong. Isn't that clear? I even gave you an analogy about America, how it's okay for us to say slavery, for example, was wrong. We don't have to say, "if we did that in the past then it was right because America is always right." Are my views really not clear to you? <<To believe that if God willed Florida to break off from the mainland and all Floridians perish in the sea (let's say it's because they can't operate a punchcard machine) would be ok (because it was God's will) is different than a Timothy McVeigh or OBL guy actually trying to do it.>> Yes and the supposed flood that nearly wiped out mankind is different than Moses and Joshua slaughtering men, women and children and taking their land, cattle, and virgins as booty. Can't you see that? I'm making the same distinction you are. How is a man-led invasion an act of God like a hurricane or an earthquake? <<but then put yourself in position to say that if God willed it, it is still bad,>> Yes genocide is always wrong. Many religious people agree and don't take all Bible stories literally. Some are in a position of saying all genocide is not wrong. I find that position to be morally inferior. << I tend to believe stories like the ones you sight are just that. They are like the parables, where a story is told to give a lesson to people to give them direction about how to lead a better life.>> I think that's a pretty reasonable position. All societies have their stories and parables from which they learn their culture and morality. Very few consider those stories to be literally true. <<This is a bit difficult to me, and is why I asked Pilch about the "chosen" Jews. Doesn't seem like God would have favorites. Do you have an example from the bible that illustrates this?>> Deuteronomy 20 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [1] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. Or Deuteronomy 25 19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it. <<do unto others as you want them to do to you>> The golden rule pre-dates Jesus by some 700 years. Steve Dietrich

To: Srexley who wrote (589383)	7/10/2004 5:23:42 PM
From: Steve Dietrich	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769670

<<They are like the parables, where a story is told to give a lesson to people to give them direction about how to lead a better life.>> Let's look at one of the Old Testament's most famous stories: The Binding of Isaac. Abraham who had great trouble in having a son is commanded by God to bind and slaughter his only son as a sacrifice to God. God is testing Abraham to see if he'd do it. Once it's clear that Abraham would in fact kill his own son for his God, God tells him to stop. God tells him he has passed the test by demonstrating such great faith and loyalty and that God will now build a great nation from Abraham's seed. Now we've learned from the Nuremberg War trials of Nazis that saying "i was just following orders" is not a defense of unspeakable acts. It's a well established moral precept that following orders is not an acceptable defense for doing heinous things. So wouldn't it have been a more moral story if Abraham had refused, telling God, "I will not murder my own defenseless son, not even for God because that would be wrong." And then have God say that Abraham having displayed such great moral courage and leadership was the perfect man from whose seed to build a great nation? Steve Dietrich