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To: Stan who wrote (37954)7/10/2004 11:03:17 AM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 39621
 
A.E. Knoch contradicts himself in his own book entitled "All in All --- The Goal of the Universe" pages 86 - 87, ©1978, printed by Concordant Publishing Concern, in regards to Mark 14:21.

A. E. KNOCH CONTRADICTS HIMSELF )
by Don C. Hewey

CONTRADICTION (1): Read carefully the excerpt written by A.E. Knoch, page 86, in response to Mark 14:21 as to "whom" Jesus Christ was referring to in the last 12 words of Mark 14:21 "...Good were it for that man if he had never been born." There are only two possibilities here. (1) Jesus Christ is not referring to Judas Iscariot, but is referring to Himself. That would grossly contradict the multitude of prophecies concerning the Messiah. For A.E. Knoch to even suggest a hint, that it would be better if Jesus Christ was not born ("ideal for Him if that man was not born") is straight out of the pit of hell. It is of the spirit of antichrist (Matthew 16:21 - 23).
(2) The only other option is that Jesus Christ was referring to Judas Iscariot. Since Jesus Christ is referring to Judas, they why would Jesus say "good for it for that man if he never been born" if "ALL" are saved? Jesus Christ is saying that it would have been better if Judas never ever existed in the first place.

Romans 1:20 - 21 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God,..."

Judas witnessed many many miracles personally that Jesus Christ did. Judas even witnessed personally face-to-face that Jesus Christ prophesized about His betrayal at the Last Supper. Judas however freely choose to do evil even after being warned of Jesus being betrayed.

Matthew 16:[21] From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
[22] Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
[23] But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (KJV)

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee:he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (KJV)


KJV: Mark 14:21 "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."
CLNT: "...The Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

A.E. Knoch writes on page 86: "...There is no real reason why this should not be rendered "it were ideal for Him if that man was not born." This leaves nothing out and does not unite the "ideal (well)" with "that man" instead of "Him." The question arises, Who is the Him? The versions say he is "that man." But just as soon as they introduce the pronoun "Him" it is in contrast to "that man," rather than the same. That man suggests a different one from the subject of the sentence, which is the Son of Mankind. A most simple solution if offered us in the preceding clause of this sentence. There we have the pronoun "Him" and "that man" both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth, as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man; "that man" is Judas. And how can it be otherwise in the balance of the sentence? It is simply out of the question for Him to refer to Judas. We must read on "ideal were it for Him [the Son of Mankind] if that man [Judas] were not born."
"Christ said many serious things concerning the son of perdition, but not one of them conflicts with His purpose or power to save him eventually together with all mankind. He never said it were good, or better, if he had not been born."

Wrong! Examine (CLNT) Matthew 27:3, Matthew 26:4, Matthew 18:7 and blatantly contradicts Luke 22:22

KJV: Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
CLNT: Matthew 27:3 "Then Judas, who gives Him up, perceiving that He was condemned, regretting, turns back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,"

Wrong rendering of "He" by the CLNT in Matthew 27:3. How can "He" refer to Jesus Christ when Judas understood that it is himself that was condemned, since he "regretting," turns back the thirty pieces of silver? The CLNT contradicts it's very own rendering of "Him" in Mark 14:21, Matthew 26:24, "He" in Matthew 27:3, and more blatantly in Luke 22:22 "...woe to that man through whom He is being given up!"

KJV: Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
CLNT: Matthew 18:7 "Woe to the world because of snares! For it is a necessity for snares to be coming. Moreover, woe to that man through whom the snare is coming!"

KJV: Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
CLNT: Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

KJV: Luke 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
CLNT: Luke 22:22 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going, according as it has been specified. However, woe to that man through whom He is being given up!"



To: Stan who wrote (37954)7/10/2004 11:13:16 PM
From: alan w  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Hi again Stan.

Unbelievers have no expectation AT ALL. They have (in themselves) nothing to look forward to or expect beyond the grave.

At one time, Paul told the Ephesians the same thing:

Eph 2:12 "that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Eph 2:12 KJV "that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

Thanks for the discussion.

alan



To: Stan who wrote (37954)7/10/2004 11:44:46 PM
From: Berry Picker  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Good argument Stan - if I may say so myself.