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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55110)	7/19/2004 5:57:26 PM
From: carranza2	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793903

If they really want a serious debate they should be running away from Michael Moore's clownish indecency to argue serious points. They're not. Precisely. Well put. But you forget the fun factor. It's a lot more fun not to think seriously about things, to make up conspiracies, to set up straw men....etc.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55110)	7/19/2004 8:35:42 PM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793903

Ah, we are changing the subject again. I gather it's just too much fun for you to find some hobgoblin and paint your political opponents with the hobgoblin. Michael Moore is not the left; he's simply a voice on the left. There are innumerable other voices.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55110)	7/20/2004 2:40:08 AM
From: KLP	Respond to of 793903

One wonders just how far European socialism would have taken Moore...? He certainly seems to like the benefits of both America for freedom of speech, and benefits of making obscene amounts of money from a system he hates..... Perhaps he will feel better if he gives it back to America, or better yet, gives it to all the poor in America, or Africa....or Europe...and then go there if he likes it better than here. If Moore believes that Scandinavian-style social democracy is preferable to American capitalism, that's his right

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (55110)	7/20/2004 8:27:53 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793903

I am somewhat tired of those who deny that there is such a thing as American anti- Americanism, who blather on about our tradition of dissent. In normal life, if you completely despise what something actually is, even positing an ideal that it might become, you would be understood to hold the thing in contempt. Does a good parent denigrate his child in order to hector him into conforming to all of the parent's expectations, or does the parent learn that acceptance is an important component of love? Wanting to improve American society is one thing, considering it as a kind of amalgamation of plutocracy and redneck populism is another. Incidentally, this is not per se a Left- Right thing. I dislike those conservatives, like Lew Rockwell, who think that the wrong side won the Civil War, and that Lincoln was a dictator, or who denounce the New Deal as if it were equivalent to Leninism, instead of a series of debatable, but watered down, social democratic measures. I don't even like Ann Coulter, who unfairly trashes people like Harry Truman and Dean Acheson, and defends McCarthy. (Yes, Ann, there were Communists in the State Department, but McCarthy nearly discredited all reasonable security precautions by being a showboating clown making wild and unsubstantiated charges.) My take, and the take of most Americans, is that we are very fortunate to be citizens of this country, even if we would like to see some things different. Maybe it has something to do with the ubiquity of intermarriage, and the fact that most Americans now have some ancestors who came to the country well after its founding. All of my ancestors emigrated after the Civil War: Latvian Jewish, Italian, even English. Ellis Island is one of my favorite places. My people were always very glad to be here. Also, most believe that patriotism means to stand up for our country, as we would stand up for our family, not because it is beyond criticism, but because it should not just be run down and insulted. Finally, we should embrace a moderate temperament politically, in order to preserve the essence of democratic debate, the willingness to abide by fair elections, and the sustenance of robust civil liberties.