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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Sun Tzu who wrote (142110)7/30/2004 5:32:58 PM
From: Sun Tzu  Respond to of 281500
 
Shall we trust the government? Aside from some interesting info on Vietnam by those who actually were there, it includes perspectives on Iraq as well.

ST


Forty years ago, political deceptions plunged the U.S. into war. A Navy pilot from New Hope, whose photographs helped escalate conflict in Vietnam, wants you to know the same thing happened in Iraq.

by David S. Barry

Although they have never met, Bob Kay and Daniel Ellsberg share an experience that spans five decades, eight presidencies and three wars. Both men worked on covert military programs in the early 1960s: Kay as a Navy reconnaissance pilot, and Ellsberg as an ex-Marine officer working at the Pentagon. And both were on duty Aug. 4, 1964, the day America turned the corner into the Vietnam War through an event known as the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

The "incident,'' which would leave a mark in world history, was the report of an unprovoked attack by North Vietnamese torpedo boats on two U.S. Navy destroyers on routine patrol in international waters off the nation's coast.

IMAGES OF WAR: Under enemy fire, Kay flew over the Tonkin Gulf in the days leading up to the USS Maddox "incident."


As one of two reconnaissance pilots stationed off the Vietnamese coast who were sent up to photograph the aftermath of the reported attack, Kay is one of the most expert living witnesses to the incident. And to Kay's trained eye, there was no attack 40 years ago this week.

The photographs that his high-speed aerial cameras shot showed nothing but inky black water. It is now widely accepted as fact that the Aug. 4 "attack'' never occurred — provoked or otherwise. Yet the White House took direct action, as if there was no doubt or question about the incident, to gain authorization to go to war against North Vietnam.


Continued at citypaper.net



To: Sun Tzu who wrote (142110)7/30/2004 5:36:20 PM
From: spiral3  Respond to of 281500
 
>> The modern outlook is what brought us science, effective medical treatments, an end to slavery, and a lot of other good things.

How so? Medicine has been with mankind since the dawn of time…..The key to progress is not empires. The key is freedom of thought and analytical thinking.

What is life? Can we make it?
August 2004
Philip Ball

Is "synthetic biology" on the point of making life? Unlike genetic engineering or biotechnology, the new discipline is not about tinkering with biology but about remaking it. Risks and rewards will be greater than anything yet encountered

The field should bring real benefits, and it poses real dangers. It will also signal a new relationship with nature, one that will uproot some treasured, if confused, notions about what "nature" and "life" mean.

click on ARTICLES, then click on CURRENT ISSUE on left sidebar, then scroll down to find the article if you're still interested at this point. prospect-magazine.co.uk



To: Sun Tzu who wrote (142110)7/30/2004 5:45:23 PM
From: Ilaine  Respond to of 281500
 
Think of the major empire builders in the world, the Romans, the Mongolians, the Arabs . . . . What contributions did they make to humanity?

Oh . . . . my . . . . God. Wow. Tell me you studied something like computer science in college, please. Not history.



To: Sun Tzu who wrote (142110)7/30/2004 5:47:21 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 281500
 
I was using the term empire loosely, as you seemed to be doing, contrasting "empire" to primitive communities of a couple of hundred. In that sense, we are, in fact, full of empires, only we call them nation states.

Without the ability to stabilize a large area, politically and militarily, civilization cannot flourish. Civilization was born in kingdoms and empires like the Chinese, the Egyptian, and the Athenian. Rome contributed a lot to civilization, mostly, it is true, by synthesis and popularization, but also in the realm of art, architecture, civil administration, engineering, public works, and law. When Rome spread through the Mediterranean and up to Britain, there was commerce, security, the building of public amenities, like aquaducts and baths, and the administration of law. When the Western Empire fell, there was chaos and the descent into partial barbarism.

The Mongols did not build an empire so much as take over the Chinese Empire. The Arabs also mainly took over the Byzantine Empire, but they contributed to learning, and invented algebra. Hitler did little more than plunge the world into chaos, and Stalin took over the Russian Empire and was a bad ruler.

The fact is, the growth of civilization has always been accompanied by the building up of states.

Medicine has been on the level of hit or miss, mostly miss, for centuries. It is only in the modern world that we have scientific validation of drugs and techniques. I do not know why you think the Egyptians were good at it, but if you could show me some real evidence, I would be interested. Whether Persia ended slavery or not, it was a common practice until a couple of centuries ago, and still exists in backwaters not much touched by modern sensibilities. Whatever enlightenment Buddha might have brought, it had to do with escaping the Wheel of Rebirth, and not much else.

The key to progress has been economic development and the rise of social classes/occupations that permit freedom from drudgery and the leisure to cultivate knowledge and the arts. This requires a fairly large agricultural base, to create the requisite surpluses; the ability to repel most invaders, and to administer justice with efficiency, which means a fairly large military and constabulary; urbanization, to create the social and economic conditions that will permit diverse occupations and a thriving market in amenities; and external trade, to bring into contact areas which have unique things to offer one another. External trade is, of course, promoted by diplomacy, but also by the assurance that one will mostly move among secure states and their territories.

Science did not, per se, exist until about the 16th century. Science cannot be divorced from the scientific method. The ancient world made strides in mathematics, and in astronomy, but knew little of physiology or physics, geology or chemistry. What we call science was either part of philosophy, and mainly speculative, or it was part of natural history, and a fairly primitive collection of observations about the natural world.

Certainly they made progress in humanities. Even so, they did not have the scholarly apparatus that we do, and literacy was extremely limited. One of the things that the modern world brought was the spread of civilization within societies, because of the technology you deride making us relatively richer, and making things like books relatively cheaper, and therefore affordable. In the developed countries, we approach the ideal of universal education, make widely available libraries and museums, and invite people of all social classes to enjoy and even contribute to the stock of literature and art.