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To: smolejv@gmx.net who wrote (52457)	8/20/2004 10:46:25 AM
From: Seeker of Truth	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

The more we use hydrogen the more we must burn fossil fuels to produce it. We have to consume more energy making the hydrogen than we get out of burning the same hydrogen. So for what problem is hydrogen the solution?

To: smolejv@gmx.net who wrote (52457)	8/20/2004 2:10:27 PM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

is that the exploding trajectory of greenhouse gas emissions won't take time off while we are all waiting for the hydrogen economy. Apparently it's been cooler world wide this year ... not just in Toronto :o) Maybe Greenhouse gasses will be a big insulation problem but we are looking at the wrong effect .... Got R40...

To: smolejv@gmx.net who wrote (52457)	8/20/2004 10:55:28 PM
From: Taikun	Respond to of 74559

<To convert the U.S. economy in this way will require a lot of hydrogen: about 150 million tons of it in each year.> The other day I did a back of the napkin calculation on what it would take to offset all the world's cars CO2 output by using solar panels. First, it takes several years before they are 'carbon neutral' (CO2 produced in manufacture). Then they offset CO2 at the rate of 2 cars per year per household install., by producing clean power. (Just to give you an idea of how primitive burning fossil fuels is: The amount of energy contained in the sunlight that hits the earth in a 24hr period is more energy than burning all the oil every discovered on earth) One solar system (6000w, installed and grid-connected) per house costs $20,000. 900m+ cars in the world 20,000900/2=$9trl $9trlUSD and we could offset all the CO2 from the world's current stock of cars. CO2 from peat bogs is also expected to increase along with global warming, to account for 70% of global CO2 in the near future. $9trl x 1/0.79=$13trl Increase the above budget for offsetting CO2 from industry. Talk about a huge market! I don't see why the politicians don't jump on this as a huge job creation stimulus program and at least start to move away from oil dependence a little (I don't think solar could make a big dent in oil demand, but it is a start) Solar power, with state rebates and electricity at 10cents/kwh+ in places like IL, NJ, NV, CA. now has a return of 10%-16% p.a.

To: smolejv@gmx.net who wrote (52457)	8/21/2004 5:10:17 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Re Hydrogen, thanks DJ. I think I mentioned at some stage that my ex-boss at BP Oil International worked for Shell in the early 1970s and he was gung ho for hydrogen. So far, he was 30 years ahead of his time. I think another 30 years could go by too before hydrogen becomes a significant factor. However, if I remember rightly, BP Solar's photovoltaic systems become economic with oil at about $50 a barrel. So do a lot of other technologies which replace the need for oil. Nuclear, coal, biomass, gas, Orimulsion, insulation, virtual movement [CDMA cyberspace], culture shifts [from driving around roads for fun, to swooping around cyberspace], smaller vehicles, other efficiencies and a thousand other ways of avoiding an expensive product, will all be gaining ground quickly now. I imagine Australia, Death Valley, the Sahara and other very sunny places, being covered with umpty million hectares of photovoltaic panels, wired together and feeding electricity into grids or electrolysis of water. The panels would provide some handy shade out in the deserts too, which a lot of plants and animals might enjoy. Maybe grass could grow under them and sheep could live there [or some other herbivores]. Mqurice